# "Scots" Language Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 29, 2004, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577 "2004-01-29T13:48:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![glas\_onion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9dc877/32.png) [@glas\_onion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glas_onion)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577/1 "2004-01-29T13:48:08Z")
I am quite interested in Linguistics, and have just discovered something that has shocked me. I am Irish, and so I am aware of the langusge known as Scots Gealic. I know it is related to the Irish language quite closely, as well as The Manx Language. I also know it is further related to the Welsh, Cornish and Breton Languages. They are all members of the Celtic branch of the Indo-European Language Tree. However, I was, until now, unaware of another language called Scots, that seems to be part of the Germanic Branch of the same tree. I have come to this conlclusion from the follwing text, the numbers One to Ten in the language: \*\*Scots: ane twa thrie fower fyve sax seiven aicht nyne ten \*\* Having _never_ heard of this language before I am intrigued. Is this language still spoken? Is/Was it spoken in Scotland? Is it simply a different branch of Old English? ---
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577/2 "2004-01-29T14:12:06Z")
Yes, you’re pretty much right. Scots is the language that Robert Burns wrote in, for example. If you’re an English speaker you can sort of understand it, even if it can be a bit tricky. Scottish people get very annoyed if you say it is a dialect, so the best way to put is that it is a separate language related to English. Gaelic is a Celtic language, like you said. What’s more, “Scots” never seems to be used to denote the Celtic language in the way that “Irish” does in Ireland. Someone on the board will probably know more about the extact terminology and language groups involved, but I’m fairly sure this is how it is. ---
**Author:** ![manwithaplan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@manwithaplan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manwithaplan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577/3 "2004-01-29T14:14:45Z")
Someone will be along to give a far more informative answer than this I think the general gist of it is that Scots is an archaic dialect of English once spoken in Scotland. It’s heavily influenced by Scots Gaelic. Think Robbie Burns. Ulster Scots (also known as Ullanns?) is another variety brought about by the influence of the Irish language on Scots spoken by scottish planters in the north of Ireland. Language activists would probably claim that both are full blown languages in themselves but that’s a bit contentious. ---
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577/4 "2004-01-29T14:15:43Z")
By the way, using Robert Burns as an example might give the impression that this language is no longer is use, but it is most definitely still spoken in Scotland today. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577/5 "2004-01-29T14:28:10Z")
Re. use of Scots in the Scottish Parliament: [http://www.findarticles.com/cf\_dls/m0FQP/4533\_130/74494053/p1/article.jhtml](http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0FQP/4533_130/74494053/p1/article.jhtml) ---
**Author:** ![glas\_onion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9dc877/32.png) [@glas\_onion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glas_onion)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577/6 "2004-01-29T14:28:28Z")
> [@manwithaplan](#): > > Someone will be along to give a far more informative answer than this I think the general gist of it is that Scots is an archaic dialect of English once spoken in Scotland. It’s heavily influenced by Scots Gaelic. Think Robbie Burns. > > Ulster Scots (also known as Ullanns?) is another variety brought about by the influence of the Irish language on Scots spoken by scottish planters in the north of Ireland. Language activists would probably claim that both are full blown languages in themselves but that’s a bit contentious. I have never heard of this _Ullanns_ either, but by the sounds of it, it seems be a Scots(the _english_ dialect(sorry)) and Irish Gaelic Hybrid. No more. Scots definitely looks to be a branch off from Old English. Maybe the Scottish simply wrote it down diffeently because of their differing accent? ---
**Author:** ![manwithaplan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@manwithaplan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manwithaplan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577/7 "2004-01-29T14:29:45Z")
> [@manwithaplan](#): > > once spoken in Scotland > [@PookahMacPhellimey](#): > > it is most definitely still spoken in Scotland today. I really shouldn’t be allowed out. ---
**Author:** ![glas\_onion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9dc877/32.png) [@glas\_onion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glas_onion)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577/8 "2004-01-29T14:35:16Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Re. use of Scots in the Scottish Parliament: [FindArticles.com | CBSi](http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0FQP/4533_130/74494053/p1/article.jhtml) Quote from mentioned website: “We say that the parliament is Scots-language- or Gaelic-friendly, but I find that when you have rules like this you’re saying that the Scots language is sub-standard.” This would seem to suggest that both languages, Scots and Scots Gaelic, are considered the same. Have they influenced each other so much, that they have combined to give one language, a Germano-Celtic hybrid the likes of which the world has never seen? ---
**Author:** ![Rodd\_Hill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ab097/32.png) [@Rodd\_Hill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodd_Hill)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577/9 "2004-01-29T14:51:37Z")
Lallans, the lowland dialect of Scots, is one dialect of Scots; Doric, the Scots of the North-East, is another, and Ullans, that of the transplanted Scots of Northern Ireland, yet another. Gaelic is an entirely different language altogether. There are certainly language activists claiming equal status for these dialects with Gaelic (and English), with strong political overtones. And, it should be said that there are some very good historical and social reasons behind some of their arguments; these are (or were–like many British regional dialects, they are being corroded by Standard Usage) the language used by “the common people in their homes”—which is _precisely_ why Burns wrote in that tongue. You would get the strap for using it in schools as little as 30 years ago. It isn’t surprising that it can be used as an emotionally-charged issue for politcal ends. My granny used many, many Lallans terms in her everyday speech (but would never have used them outside the house, in public–her generation had had it pounded into them that you didn’t use _common_ language in polite society); and my mum still uses many. Stoorie for dusty or dirty, blether for gossip, bairn for infant, birl for spin, and so on. Here’s a good [on-line guide to Scots](http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/index.htm) But remember: > [@](#): > > COPYRICHT > Aw richts is pitten by. Nae pairt o this darg shuid be doobelt, hained in ony kin o seestem, or furthset in ony shape or bi ony gate whitsomeiver, athoot haein leave frae the writer afore-haund. > > A hae nae pleens whan the abuin is duin for tae fordle the Scots leid in eddication, sae lang’s naebody is makkin siller oot o’t. Ony speirins mail us. So you can’t say you haven’t been warned! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577/10 "2004-01-29T15:28:28Z")
I believe the Scots language was more influenced by the speech of the Angles who dominated northeastern England and southeastern Scotland after the Anglo-Saxon invasions. Furthermore, it’s my impression that Scots was less influenced by major linguistic upheavals that had big effects on the developments of English, such as the Danish and Norman conquests. I believe speakers of Scots generally deny that it is a dialect _of_ English. It is a separate language that developed alongside English from similar roots. **glas onion** , I believe you’re misreading that quote. He’s referring to the parliamentary status of two separate languages, Scots and Scottish Gaelic (Gàidhlig, also known as Erse, as opposed to Irish Gaelic or Gaeilge). There was another major language of Scotland, Norn, which was related to Danish and Norwegian. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577/11 "2004-01-29T16:31:55Z")
I’ve no problem Scots being considered a dialect of English, as long as you understand that a dialect is not a devation from any “norm”. I believe any speaker’s denial of it being a dialect is more of a misguided political stance than any linguistic reasoning. All speakers of English speak a dialect, Scots is just one of the oldest and most unique. I don’t consider it to be different enough from any other English dialect to consitute a totally different language. Whether you want to argue if Scots is still spoken today or not depends on how you wish to define it. Many purists insist to speak Scots you must speak the language of Burns, which is as ridiculous as demanding a speaker of an English dialect must sound like Shakespeare. Perhaps there was scope for suggesting that Burns’ Scots was a separate language (just), but as that Scots is dead and gone it hardly matters now. Scots has faded with time and, like all dialects and accents, is converging towards an international standard. This is inevitable. Use of Scots words are still very common, (I still have to replace some in my posts because I know you’ll not understand them.) but they are increasingly surrounded by standard English, all be it accented. I don’t consider Scots Gaelic to have been a _major_ influence on Scots, no more than any neighbouring language. They have both been in existance for similar periods, but Scots will have had a greater influence from its sister dialects to the South. ---
**Author:** ![glas\_onion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9dc877/32.png) [@glas\_onion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glas_onion)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577/12 "2004-01-29T16:33:37Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > **glas onion** , I believe you’re misreading that quote. He’s referring to the parliamentary status of two separate languages, Scots and Scottish Gaelic (Gàidhlig, also known as Erse, as opposed to Irish Gaelic or Gaeilge). There was another major language of Scotland, Norn, which was related to Danish and Norwegian. I think I was misreading the quote too. No harm though? Norn? This question of Scottish languages gets deeper still. Is this language preserved anywhere, I take it it isn’t spoken anywhere today? Does it have the similar history to Scots. That is, would it be as similar to Norwegian/Danish as Scots is to English? Aren’t the languages of Scandinavia mutually intelligble, and if so, does Norn fit in to this description? Did/does Norn contain the typical Scandinavian alphabet characters “øØ” etc? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577/13 "2004-01-29T16:59:26Z")
> **[Global Industry Market Sizing - NationMaster](https://www.nationmaster.com/)** > > Looking for country statistics? NationMaster gives access to market sizing and trends across 300 industry verticals and a global coverage. Apparently Norn was a language in the Shetlends and Orkney, finally dying out around the 1700s. So I guess it was a similar demise to other British languages such as Cornish and Manx, just slightly earlier. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577/14 "2004-01-29T17:01:27Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > …like all dialects and accents, is converging towards an international standard. This is inevitable. Ouch. Rather a debatable point you made, there? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577/15 "2004-01-29T17:03:12Z")
More on Norn: > [@](#): > > By the early nineteenth century a scant handful of older Orcadians still knew the language and when they died Norn went with them. > > But although the grammar and intricacies of the language are lost to us, a huge number of words from the extinct language survived in the dialect of Orkney. These words, generally those relating to everyday life, survived and remain today. > > But although Orcadians spoke Norn for nearly 1,000 years, few if any of them ever wrote - or could write - a word of it. The illiteracy of the general population meant that the exact form the language took and its words are practically unknown with only a few tiny fragments of written Norn remaining to us today. [http://www.orkneyjar.com/orkney/norn.htm](http://www.orkneyjar.com/orkney/norn.htm) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577/16 "2004-01-29T17:04:20Z")
And from the same site, the Lord’s Prayer: > [@](#): > > Favor i ir i chimrie, Helleur ir i nam thite, > gilla cosdum thite cumma, veya thine mota vara gort > o yurn sinna gort i chimrie, > ga vus da on da dalight brow vora > Firgive vus sinna vora sin vee Firgive sindara mutha vus, > lyv vus ye i tumtation, min delivera vus fro olt ilt, Amen. Somebody else can tell us if there’s recognisable Scandinavian traits in that 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577/17 "2004-01-29T17:18:12Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Ouch. Rather a debatable point you made, there? I don’t think so. The fact that we are actively conversing, where 100 years ago we’d hardly ever come across someone from the other end of the country, never mind from another continent, makes it inevitable that we all start to move towards a similar, shared, dialect. Dialects only arise through distance and separation. These physical and social restrictions are diminishing. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577/18 "2004-01-29T17:27:58Z")
> [@Futile Gesture](#): > > I don’t think so. The fact that we are actively conversing, where 100 years ago we’d hardly ever come across someone from the other end of the country, never mind from another continent, makes it inevitable that we all start to move towards a similar, shared, dialect. > > Dialects only arise through distance and separation. These physical and social restrictions are diminishing. You overlook the constant creation of new dialects. I’ve no idea wtf is said in most rap records. And plenty of people would have no idea what ‘wtf’ means in the previous sentence. Long-distance communications do not prevent dialects from arising, they just remove the regionality. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577/19 "2004-01-29T21:44:09Z")
I think it was early in the Middle English period when the language went through a minor Vowel Shift. This isn’t the Great Vowel Shift that occurred between Chaucer and Shakespeare, but an earlier one whose main effect was to change long _a_ to long _o_. But this little vowel shift didn’t affect Scots, and that’s why today Scots has words like _laird_ instead of _lord_, and _twa_ instead of _two_. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2004, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577/20 "2004-01-29T22:10:49Z")
The Anglicisation of Scots began as far back as the 13th c. as Scottish gentlemen, anxious not to appear uncultured, made tours to Europe. England was an obvious place to start and many acquired English words and phrases. Scots, and Northern English, contain many words of Scandinavian origin, relics of the waves of invaders who came to pillage and stayed to settle. Today many Scottish people still include dialect words in their everyday English, not as a conscious effort but because they grew up like that. As Hollywood continues its conquest of the English-speaking world we are likely to see the younger generations using these words less and less. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scots-language-question/226577.md?page=2)