# Scott McClellan Says Helen Thomas Opposes 'War on Terrorism' **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 14, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scott-mcclellan-says-helen-thomas-opposes-war-on-terrorism/326240 "2005-10-14T16:39:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scott-mcclellan-says-helen-thomas-opposes-war-on-terrorism/326240/101 "2005-10-15T13:05:45Z")
> [@The Tooth](#): > > Ah, I see: the US didn’t invade Iraq in order to fight terrorists, it has to fight terrorists because it invaded Iraq. > > The way this is bent into a justification for the U.S. presence in Iraq would make M.C. Escher take a Dramamine and have a nice liedown. But think of the possibilities! Pick a country. Any country. Now invade it and occupy it. There will, of course, be resistance to the occupation. That resistance will take the form of “asymmetrical warfare”\* (or “warfair” according to one of the bigger morons on the board). Voila! You’re now fighting terrorists and your invasion is justified thanks to the War On Terror. Apparently, the Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism\*\* flopped shortly after the birthin’. I guess the Bush Admin misoverestimated their base’s attention span. I agree that McClellan has got to go, though. He’s not even fun to watch the way Ari was. Scotty-boy spends most of his time looking like a cornered, wounded animal. -Joe \*Remember that term? Another one of those “fuck, nobody was stupid enough to buy it, guess we should stop using it” ideas. \*\*See above ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scott-mcclellan-says-helen-thomas-opposes-war-on-terrorism/326240/102 "2005-10-15T13:41:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I answered this, but if you disagree, it ought to be easy to resolve. Tell me this: what does “the broader war on terrorism” mean, exactly? That’s an easy one. Foreign terrorists went into Iraq, and killed between twenty-five and thirty-thousand people there, so the “broader war on terrorism” includes hunting down these terrorists. Oh, wait a minute . . . ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scott-mcclellan-says-helen-thomas-opposes-war-on-terrorism/326240/103 "2005-10-15T14:35:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What we need here is an analogy. Here’s another. A forest is plagued with numerous small fires. The decision is made to fight them thusly: Go to the middle of the forest. Start a bonfire. Pour gasoline on it. Repeat as necessary. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scott-mcclellan-says-helen-thomas-opposes-war-on-terrorism/326240/104 "2005-10-15T16:29:57Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Meanwhile, in three years we’ve gone from “The War in Iraq” to “The Broader War on Terror” and even this one that makes me shudder: > > “a global war against terrorism”: While I (obviously) oppose the policies that the administration has pursued, it should be noted, in fairness, that the invasion of Iraq was always explained in terms of the “war on terrorism.” The claims made before the invasion were that Hussein actively supported terrorism (a series of lies including falsely accusing Zarqawi of being a member of al Qaida so as to pretend that Huissein was “working with” al Qaida when Zarqawi went to Iraq for medical treatment and accusing Hussein of harboring al Qaida terrorist camps when thosae camps (which _were_ in Iraq) were actually in the northern protected zone where the U.S. Air Force prevented the Iraq army from attacking them). In this single regard, the administration has been consistent. They have always pretended that the invasionm of Iraq had some vague relationship to a war on terror. The fact that the invasion encouraged resistance and recruited more members for both terrorist and insurgent groups from outside Iraq was simply gravy for the administration which can now point to the more active terrorism that they encouraged as a sign that we need to fight it in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scott-mcclellan-says-helen-thomas-opposes-war-on-terrorism/326240/105 "2005-10-15T18:03:02Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > But think of the possibilities! > > Pick a country. Any country. Now invade it and occupy it. There will, of course, be resistance to the occupation. That resistance will take the form of “asymmetrical warfare”\* (or “warfair” according to one of the bigger morons on the board). > > Voila! You’re now fighting terrorists and your invasion is justified thanks to the War On Terror. This has occured to me. And I’ve seen other boards that aren’t F.R. full of people for whom this would make perfect sense. People are strange. > [@Merijeek](#): > > Apparently, the Global Struggle Against Violent Extremism\*\* flopped shortly after the birthin’. I guess the Bush Admin misoverestimated their base’s attention span. > > I agree that McClellan has got to go, though. He’s not even fun to watch the way Ari was. Scotty-boy spends most of his time looking like a cornered, wounded animal. I think he goes home, curls up in front of the television with a bottle of Jack Daniels and cries himself to sleep. But I admire his stamina. I would have cracked long ago. “I know! I know this is all bullshit! But they make me say these things! They won’t let me give real answers! [sub]Help me![/sub]” ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scott-mcclellan-says-helen-thomas-opposes-war-on-terrorism/326240/106 "2005-10-15T20:34:44Z")
> [@The Tooth](#): > > This has occured to me. And I’ve seen other boards that aren’t F.R. full of people for whom this would make perfect sense. People are strange. What does F.R. stand for? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scott-mcclellan-says-helen-thomas-opposes-war-on-terrorism/326240/107 "2005-10-15T20:45:50Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What does F.R. stand for? I’m guessing either Free Republic, or Franklin Roosevelt. Considering the context, most likely the former. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scott-mcclellan-says-helen-thomas-opposes-war-on-terrorism/326240/108 "2005-10-15T21:33:30Z")
Yes, Free Republic. Although Franklin Roosevelt would be accurate. The board full of people who would buy such guff is, in fact, neither Free Republic nor Franklin Roosevelt. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scott-mcclellan-says-helen-thomas-opposes-war-on-terrorism/326240/109 "2005-10-15T21:54:05Z")
From the original press conference: > [@](#): > > THOMAS What does the President mean by “total victory” – that we will never leave Iraq until we have “total victory”? What does that mean? > > McCLELLAN: Free and democratic Iraq in the heart of the Middle East, because a free and democratic Iraq in the heart of the Middle East will be a major blow to the ambitions – > > THOMAS If they ask us to leave, then we’ll leave? > > MR. McCLELLAN: I’m trying to respond. A free and democratic Iraq in the heart of the broader Middle East will be a major blow to the ambitions of al Qaeda and their terrorist associates. They want to establish or impose their rule over the broader Middle East – we saw that in the Zawahiri letter that was released earlier this week by the intelligence community. To that I replied: > [@](#): > > I have ignored Al-qaeda’s cries that the letter is a forgery, but I remember seeing an analysis on the greetings that puts in doubt that Zarwahiri made the letter (IIRC the religious greetings were wrong for the kind of fellow Zarwahiri is), knowing the location, we should not forget that convenient letters appeared before that then supported what Bush said regarding the close relationship with Saddam and Al-qaeda, only for the letters to turn to be fakes later… Yes, after all that, I don’t trust the intelligence that gave us this letter. Checking back, it looks like the blogsters (the more serious ones show more responsability than the mainstream media) are reporting a correction: it seems the greetings are sometimes used by the ones the letter addresses. However, the doubts now come from a bit somehow previously ignored and it showed to be embarasing to Negroponte and the administration: [http://smh.com.au/news/World/US-cant-explain-Zarqawi-letter-detail/2005/10/15/1128796735255.html?oneclick=true](http://smh.com.au/news/World/US-cant-explain-Zarqawi-letter-detail/2005/10/15/1128796735255.html?oneclick=true) > [@](#): > > US can’t explain ‘Zarqawi’ letter detail > October 15, 2005 - 10:34AM > > US intelligence officials who released a letter purporting to be from an al-Qaeda leader to Iraq insurgency leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi this week said they could not account for a passage that has raised doubts about the document’s authenticity. > > The July 9 dated letter, which US officials say was written by al-Qaeda’s second in command, Ayman al-Zawahri, \*\*appears near its close to urge the Iraq insurgent leader to send greetings to himself \*\* if visiting the Iraqi city of Falluja. > > “My greetings to all the loved ones and please give me news of Karem and the rest of the folks I know,” says an unedited English translation. > > “And especially, by God, if by chance you’re going to Falluja, **send greetings to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi** ,” it states. > > Zarqawi is the Jordanian-born leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq, the most prominent segment of the deadly Iraq insurgency. His organisation has said the letter is a fabrication. > > A spokesman for Negroponte, who is the US director of national intelligence, or DNI, acknowledged the greetings passage was confusing but said the intelligence community was confident the letter was addressed to Zarqawi by Zawahri. > > “We don’t know what to make of it (the passage). It’s unclear,” the Negroponte spokesman said. Oh yes unclear. :rolleyes: I have seen this movie before, all the Bush apologists swallow the information and then when the correction appears on page 18, it is ignored. [http://news.ft.com/cms/s/65d4de88-3d18-11da-83c8-00000e2511c8.html](http://news.ft.com/cms/s/65d4de88-3d18-11da-83c8-00000e2511c8.html) > [@](#): > > The US said the letter was from Ayman al-Zawahiri, al-Qaeda’s number two, who is apparently holed up in the tribal areas of Pakistan. It said it was sent to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, Jordanian-born head of a high- profile terror group called al-Qaeda in Iraq. > > In a report to clients, Aegis Defence Services, a London-based consultancy, argued that the letter, addressed to Abu Musab, had actually been sent to Abu Musab al-Suri, also known as Mustafa Setmarian Nasar, a Syrian who acted as an intermediary for al-Qaeda in Europe during the 1990s and whose whereabouts were unknown. > > The letter’s respectful tone, coupled with a reference to Mr Zarqawi in the third person - “if by chance you are going to Fallujah, send greetings to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi” - suggested it was directed to a more intimate confidant than Mr Zarqawi. > > A statement from Abu Maysara Iraqi, who claims to be aspokesman for the Zarqawi group, was carried on several Islamic websites on Thursday saying the US fabricated the letter. > > Stephen Ulph, an analyst at the US-based Jamestown Foundation, said the letter presented a number of problems. There had been no clarification as to how it was intercepted and no independent corroboration of its authenticity. He also found it remarkable that a letter between two al-Qaeda leaders should spell out strategy in such an explanatory way, as if these basic details were the subject of doubt. While it may turn that this letter came indeed from Al-qaeda, it is significant to notice that it’s importance and accuracy was increased for propaganda purposes, this conclusion is reached because this administration has done this many times before. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scott-mcclellan-says-helen-thomas-opposes-war-on-terrorism/326240/110 "2005-10-16T13:32:41Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > [This](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=298099&highlight=yellowcake) Maybe? Precisely–thanks! The argument happens in that thread primarily from posts 158-171. A summary: -A lie consists of the statement of a falsehood with an intent to deceive. -[Bush stated that](http://www.jeffcoop.com/blog/archives/001476.html) “according to a 1998 report by the International Atomic Energy Agency, Iraq was within six months of developing nuclear weapons. A spokesperson for the IEAE denied that any such report existed. When asked for clarification, a White House spokesperson said that the report was from 1991, not 1998. Again, the IEAE denied that it had issued such a report.” We’ve got our statement of a falsehood. -The president was offering this misstatement as part of a campaign to convince the public that the evidence was unambiguous that Iraq was developing WMDs. In reality, [many experts within the Executive branch](http://www.isis-online.org/publications/iraq/al_tubes.html) doubted the evidence: > [@](#): > > The White House last week said attempts by Iraq to acquire the tubes point to a clandestine program to make enriched uranium for nuclear bombs. But the experts say in a new report that the evidence is ambiguous, and in some ways contradicts what is known about Iraq’s past nuclear efforts. > . > … > . > Since then, U.S. officials have acknowledged differing opinions within the U.S. intelligence community about possible uses for the tubes – with some experts contending that a more plausible explanation was that the aluminum was meant to build launch tubes for Iraq’s artillery rockets. We’ve got our intent to deceive. A falsehood uttered with an intent to deceive is a lie. As **Bricker** stated in this thread, “The only saving grace here will be if there WAS a report after all. Absent that,” he concluded, “I concede this was a lie.” For my part, this is far too much niggling. The attempt to deceive is the morally relevant portion of a lie; even if someone manages to deceive through speaking only the truth, they’re as bad as someone who lies. But some folks grant more ethical leeway to politicians and other advocates than I do; even they should admit that Bush lied about the evidence leading up to war. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scott-mcclellan-says-helen-thomas-opposes-war-on-terrorism/326240/111 "2005-10-16T14:10:23Z")
Some of us have been calling Bush a liar all along, with cites, references, quotes and government documentation. Others just stick their heads up their asses and go LALALALALALALALALA. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scott-mcclellan-says-helen-thomas-opposes-war-on-terrorism/326240/112 "2005-10-16T15:08:12Z")
Relatively minor point of clarification. It is not necessarily a US forgery (if forgery it be, which seems increasingly likely…). In the practice of deception, disinformation, and bullshit nothing is easier to sell than “information” that fits neatly within the desires and preconceptions of the target. The more Iraq evolves to a client-state, the more powerful Iraqis with a vested interest in keeping America right where it is. People, for instance, standing outside with large buckets while the sky opens up and rains money. Ali Mustache Al-Suckup: Look here, my American friend, (May the Prophet keep you safe from pork rinds!). Here we have intercepted intelligence, from one of our super-duper secret agents! Boy, we are doing a great job (give us some more money), our agents have penetrated the very clandestine center of AlQ operations (though we could do better if we had some more money). We have obtained this super-secret letter from two of the very tippy tip top AlQ leaders! No, we don’t know where they are. (Maybe if we had more money?) Lt. Shiesskopf (Intelligence, US Army): Clearly, this is solid gold! No question about it, we have this verified from a number of entirely reliable sources… And so it goes. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scott-mcclellan-says-helen-thomas-opposes-war-on-terrorism/326240/113 "2005-10-16T15:35:28Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Some of us have been calling Bush a liar all along, with cites, references, quotes and government documentation. Others just stick their heads up their asses and go LALALALALALALALALA. I strongly suspect that the example I gave is not the only example of an Administration lie. It is, however, an example that’s easily cited and is pretty airtight, so I think it’s a useful one to demonstrate that, at least once in the buildup for the war, the Administration told an outright lie in an effort to convince the public that their case for war was better than it really was. Saying, “They lied once, and here are strong cites to this effect” will, I hope, prove more convincing than saying, “They lied a whole bunch of times, and if you can’t see that, you’re stupid.” Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scott-mcclellan-says-helen-thomas-opposes-war-on-terrorism/326240.md?page=5)