# Scottish Dopers: May 4th (Or May 3d if you're picky) \[ed. title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 17, 2007, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484 "2007-04-17T16:20:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484/21 "2007-04-18T13:44:11Z")
[QUOTE=Cryptoderk] I don’t see the problem in that. Edited to add: I’m willing to take a punt [/QUOTE] The problem is that “punt” you’re taking has consequences for other people. So, you see, your willingness to do that on the grounds that you can run south if it all goes wrong is rather inconsiderate of the other people your choice might affect ---
**Author:** ![pretend\_my\_name\_is\_witty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b9e5f3/32.png) [@pretend\_my\_name\_is\_witty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pretend_my_name_is_witty)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484/22 "2007-04-18T13:47:08Z")
Scottish Independence under the SNP…or…third world nation within 18 years. Well, maybe not that far. The danger to me seems that SNP gain votes from the misguided jingoists (not suggesting the OP is one), and if they get in power their lack of _actual_ economic policies would drive this country into the ground. Let’s sort this country out (Britain) rather than branching off and creating a whole new mess. ---
**Author:** ![Cryptoderk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cryptoderk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cryptoderk)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484/23 "2007-04-18T15:39:58Z")
[QUOTE=Gary Kumquat] The problem is that “punt” you’re taking has consequences for other people. So, you see, your willingness to do that on the grounds that you can run south if it all goes wrong is rather inconsiderate of the other people your choice might affect [/QUOTE] There isn’t any party that, in power, will not negatively effect someone. If a more competenet party advocated Scottish indepence then I would have no problem voting for them, but at present I see the SNP as a necessary evil. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484/24 "2007-04-18T16:46:55Z")
[QUOTE=Cryptoderk] There isn’t any party that, in power, will not negatively effect someone. If a more competent party advocated Scottish indepence then I would have no problem voting for them, but at present I see the SNP as a necessary evil. [/QUOTE] The issue is not your political affiliation; rather, your attitude that if things don’t go well for you, you will pack up and leave and let others bear the cost of your vote. If there is any significant number of people that feel the same way, I don’t think that Scotland will, or should, make it as an independent state. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484/25 "2007-04-18T17:46:46Z")
[QUOTE=Cryptoderk] There isn’t any party that, in power, will not negatively effect someone. If a more competenet party advocated Scottish indepence then I would have no problem voting for them, but at present I see the SNP as a necessary evil. [/QUOTE] Yeah, you’re pretty much saying, “I’m voting for Scotland to be independent, and then moving out.” ---
**Author:** ![Cryptoderk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cryptoderk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cryptoderk)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484/26 "2007-04-18T18:15:00Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Yeah, you’re pretty much saying, “I’m voting for Scotland to be independent, and then moving out.” [/QUOTE] What I am saying is that I would be willing to bare an SNP government for a short time to preside over independence, before then voting in whatever party I am most ideologicaly in tune with in our first proper elections. If it all goes wrong after ten years, then I’ll leave. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484/27 "2007-04-18T20:04:45Z")
[QUOTE=Cryptoderk] What I am saying is that I would be willing to bare an SNP government for a short time to preside over independence, before then voting in whatever party I am most ideologicaly in tune with in our first proper elections. If it all goes wrong after ten years, then I’ll leave. [/QUOTE] What makes you think you’ll be allowed to settle elsewhere? If Scotland leaves the union, then the rest is likely to turn Tory, and if the Euroskeptics gain the upper hand they could well leave the EU. ---
**Author:** ![Cryptoderk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cryptoderk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cryptoderk)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484/28 "2007-04-18T21:04:37Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] What makes you think you’ll be allowed to settle elsewhere? If Scotland leaves the union, then the rest is likely to turn Tory, and if the Euroskeptics gain the upper hand they could well leave the EU. [/QUOTE] That doesn’t mean leaving the EC, Council of Europe or other good things - I’m pretty sure that the residence right doesn’t come from the EU. As it is, I was born in Durham, so won’t have any problems 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cryptoderk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cryptoderk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cryptoderk)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484/29 "2007-04-18T21:08:04Z")
[QUOTE=Cryptoderk] That doesn’t mean leaving the EC, Council of Europe or other good things - I’m pretty sure that the residence right doesn’t come from the EU. As it is, I was born in Durham, so won’t have any problems 😃 [/QUOTE] Whoops, just checked and I was wrong about this. Oh well. If a decent tory party (i.e. the growing Libertarian wing, not controlling loons or wishy washy blairites like Cameron) got in power in England I’d probably move there anyway. So England would win from Scottish independence too… ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484/30 "2007-04-19T00:04:08Z")
There’s only room for one celtic tiger. My view (and I could be completely wrong here) is that the SNP will get in but that they won’t be able to get a majority in a referendum on independence. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484/31 "2007-04-19T11:00:23Z")
[QUOTE=An Gadaí] There’s only room for one celtic tiger. My view (and I could be completely wrong here) is that the SNP will get in but that they won’t be able to get a majority in a referendum on independence. [/QUOTE] I think you are correct on both counts here **An Gadai**. The phenomenal growth that Ireland has experienced is commonly cited as an example to follow by nationalists here, and they without fail omit the fact that the Irish were helped by massive leg-up of EU cash; cash that is currently heading east at a rate of knots, and isn’t going to be available to a relatively prosperous country like Scotland ---
**Author:** ![Cryptoderk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cryptoderk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cryptoderk)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484/32 "2007-04-19T11:50:51Z")
That was a factor, but so was the fact that Ireland is one of the easiest and cheapest places to start and run a business in the world. With the SNP in charge this wouldn’t apply to Scotland, but with the right guys in charge it easily could. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484/33 "2007-04-19T14:13:23Z")
[QUOTE=Cryptoderk] That was a factor, but so was the fact that Ireland is one of the easiest and cheapest places to start and run a business in the world. [/QUOTE] Which was because they could afford tax incentives and start up grants thanks to EU money, money which will not be available to Scotland now whoever was at the helm come independance (as we can’t even hope to claim to need it as badly as the new entrants to the EU). Failing that, the only option to entice business would be to reduce corporation tax and offer start up grants funded by income tax from the population. Of course, seeing as the SNP will already be imposing a 43% tax on executives, then you’re going to find it really hard to entice people to start companies here when you need to increase that to 50% to fund your business incentives. I’m curious. Scotland isn’t located well geographically (compared for example to Hong Kong, as a gateway to china). We’re not likely to get any cash incentives we can pass on to draw businesses here. The north sea production levels have been in decline for years. We don’t have any particularly famous universities, or academic & research centres. We don’t have a history of anonymous financial centres, such as sweden or the Isle of Mann. Just what is it exactly that makes you think “an independent Scotland could be the next Hong Kong if it were run properly”. ---
**Author:** ![Cryptoderk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cryptoderk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cryptoderk)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484/34 "2007-04-19T17:07:46Z")
[QUOTE=Gary Kumquat] I’m curious. Scotland isn’t located well geographically (compared for example to Hong Kong, as a gateway to china). We’re not likely to get any cash incentives we can pass on to draw businesses here. The north sea production levels have been in decline for years. We don’t have any particularly famous universities, or academic & research centres. We don’t have a history of anonymous financial centres, such as sweden or the Isle of Mann. Just what is it exactly that makes you think “an independent Scotland could be the next Hong Kong if it were run properly”. [/QUOTE] If we were in the EU, we could easily be a shipping hub for atlantic trade. I agree about the present state of academia, but look back 150 years and Edinburgh was Oxbridge beating, scientifically speaking. And we invented economics! We’ve an industrious protestant work ethic! More to the point, super low taxes and streamlined bureaucracy will always lead to business creation. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484/35 "2007-04-19T17:25:52Z")
[QUOTE=Cryptoderk] If we were in the EU, we could easily be a shipping hub for atlantic trade. [/QUOTE] That was tried years ago at Greenock - didn’t work. There’s no advantage int depositing your goods in Scotland when another days sailing takes you to Rotterdam. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484/36 "2007-04-19T20:09:05Z")
[QUOTE=Cryptoderk] super low taxes and streamlined bureaucracy will always lead to business creation. [/QUOTE] Oh really. Just as simple as that, eh? Are you talking about super low taxes for the individual (you know, like the existing tax havens such as Gibralter, Andorra, Lichtenstein, etc) or for the corporation (Ireland, the Isle of Man, Hong Kong, etc). And once you’ve cleared that up, perhaps you can explain what our advantage will be that will tempt people/businesses from the existing ones? That tax haven market is a competitive place ya know, and I doubt we’ll tempt people here on the basis of our weather. And finally, perhaps you’ll then explain (as I asked before) how you intend to pay for it? Drop one tax, you have to raise another. Is it the indivual or business that you intend to pick up the tab? All in all, it looks to me like your position is based more on faith than on reason. ---
**Author:** ![Cryptoderk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cryptoderk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cryptoderk)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484/37 "2007-04-19T20:59:15Z")
You only need to raise another tax if you intend to keep public spending the same. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484/38 "2007-04-19T21:09:44Z")
[QUOTE=Cryptoderk] You only need to raise another tax if you intend to keep public spending the same. [/QUOTE] Very true. Any chance you could outline how much you were planning to cut public spending by, and where from? Defence, health, social, education? By the way, still waiting for an answer to my last 3 questions. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484/39 "2007-04-19T21:26:31Z")
Because I’m particularly helpful, here’s the most recent published figures for Scotland’s public income & expenditure: [http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/11/2485808/58177#61](http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/11/2485808/58177#61) You’ll note this tells you how much was raised (31.6 Billion, excluding North sea revenue which even if you allocate 100% towards scotland is worth approx 3.6 Billion\*, so a total of 35.2) It also tells you how that money was spent, and how it was raised. So, in your own time, please advise which spending you think should be cut, how much by, and how you’ll pass that saving on to create our tax haven? - [http://www.scotland.gov.uk/library/documents-w3/gers-09.htm](http://www.scotland.gov.uk/library/documents-w3/gers-09.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Cryptoderk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cryptoderk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cryptoderk)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484/40 "2007-04-19T22:04:13Z")
[QUOTE=Gary Kumquat] Because I’m particularly helpful, here’s the most recent published figures for Scotland’s public income & expenditure: [http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/11/2485808/58177#61](http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/11/2485808/58177#61) You’ll note this tells you how much was raised (31.6 Billion, excluding North sea revenue which even if you allocate 100% towards scotland is worth approx 3.6 Billion\*, so a total of 35.2) It also tells you how that money was spent, and how it was raised. So, in your own time, please advise which spending you think should be cut, how much by, and how you’ll pass that saving on to create our tax haven? - [http://www.scotland.gov.uk/library/documents-w3/gers-09.htm](http://www.scotland.gov.uk/library/documents-w3/gers-09.htm) [/QUOTE] If you’re serious about this, can I have a few weeks? I will next have time to seriously think about it on about the 7th May. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-dopers-may-4th-or-may-3d-if-youre-picky-ed-title/400484.md?page=3)