# Scottish Independence and Nuclear Weapons **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579 "2015-04-26T16:43:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/1 "2015-04-26T16:43:37Z")
During arguments last year over Scottish Independence it was asserted that the rump UK would insist on maintaining Faslane (nuclear armed submarine berthing and servicing) and Coulport (Nuclear Warhead facility) in Scotland. It was even asserted that they would legally retain parts of Scottish land as military enclaves such as Akrotiri or Guantanamo. Now it seems that recently there has been active investigation of Gibraltar to replace Faslane > **[EXCLUSIVE: Trident nuclear submarines to be moved to Gibraltar amid SN](https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/572986/Gibraltar-Trident-nuclear-submarines-SNP)** > > GIBRALTAR has been earmarked as a possible base for Britain’s Vanguard nuclear submarines if the SNP ­succeeds in ridding Scotland of Trident. Additionally the BBC TV News item further mentioned a recent assessment of a US facility to replace Coulport. There are obvious contingency plans being made that suggests a fear of a second successful referendum. Given the current demonisation of the SNP and Scotland during the current election campaign there may well be increased pressure for a repeat referendum during the next Parliament, especially if the current anti-Scottish sentiment in Westminster continues. If a Conservative led government or grand coalition occur with Scottish MPs totally sidelined, sentiments would certainly change in Scotland. 2016 is an election year in Scotland and the SNP are currently hitting over fifty per cent in polls. Ruth Davison, Scottish Conservative Leader admitted this morning that should Holyrood vote for a second referendum, given the Westminster accords it would be impossible for a UK government to obstruct it without further stoking the demand for independence and a referendum. It is gratifying to see that at least the MOD has not buried its head in the sand. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/2 "2015-04-26T17:07:11Z")
What’s the debate? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/3 "2015-04-26T17:11:14Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > What’s the debate? I think it’s “How is this different from all **Pjen’s** other debates on Scottish independence?” ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/4 "2015-04-26T17:22:51Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > What’s the debate? It’s largely a correction for endless arguments from unionists that the UK was not and would never remove Faslane and Coulport. And given that it is subsequent to the referendum, it indicates that this is still a live issue. I suppose that the debate is, how do we react to patently false statements over the issue. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/5 "2015-04-26T17:25:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I think it’s “How is this different from all **Pjen’s** other debates on Scottish independence?” Don’t be silly. It’s: Is Scottish Independence: a) Uber-super-duper good b) Super-duper good -or- c) just super good? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/6 "2015-04-26T17:29:39Z")
I reluctantly support Super-duper good, though I was only a Super good supporter before the disastrous Bitter Together campaign and the broken Vow. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/7 "2015-04-26T17:30:58Z")
It makes sense for the British government, should some sort of Scottish independence come about, to find replacements for Faslane and Coulport, I’d imagine. And should independence happens, the existence of alternative sites weakens Scotland’s bargaining position against London’s. They stop becoming bargaining chips. So, good for the UK in contingency planning, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/8 "2015-04-26T17:34:38Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I suppose that the debate is, how do we react to patently false statements over the issue. There are theree options: 1. Uber-super-duper outrage 2. Super-duper disdain 3. Just super annoyance. I can’t see that any of that planning makes a whit of difference to the overall issue. If I were at risk of being evicted from my house, I might make plans to find another house. The act of me thinking about another house doesn’t mean that eviction is tolerable or even preferred. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/9 "2015-04-26T17:44:54Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > There are theree options: > > 1. Uber-super-duper outrage > 2. Super-duper disdain > 3. Just super annoyance. > > I can’t see that any of that planning makes a whit of difference to the overall issue. If I were at risk of being evicted from my house, I might make plans to find another house. The act of me thinking about another house doesn’t mean that eviction is tolerable or even preferred. I think it does. There were strong assertions made even that England had a right to retain Scottish territory to maintain the deterrent and could raise troops against the Scottish and force there way through the roads from the border, through Glasgow and on to Coulport and Faslane. I maintained that a rational solution would be found. It is important when discussing a question to make strong assertions stand up; current moves show that rationality would likely won over the stir suggestion that armed force should be used. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/10 "2015-04-26T17:50:31Z")
“We, the Scottish people, vote that we are no longer part of England and this land is now ours. Unless, of course, they really want it, in which case, okay…” Yeah, that’ll pass. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/11 "2015-04-26T18:08:09Z")
I don’t think there was the serious concern that, should Scotland have voted independence in the most recent referendum, you’d see armed war between the UK and Scotland in the short term with British troops conquering Glasgow or something. One of the major arguments made against Scottish independence was, instead, that it would lead to economic problems for Scotland, as it would be cut off from the rest of the British economy and its accession to the European Union might be in doubt should there be substantial British opposition. I seem to recall some, on the contrary, saying that places like Faslaine could be used as a bargaining chip by the Scottish in independence negotiations, in a "If you, the rest of UK wish to keep Faslaine, you’ll need to give us some concessions (letting us continue to use the Pound, support for EU membership, concessions of the southern North Sea oil fields, what have you.) If the UK finds an alternative to Faslaine, that chip disappears. The British negotiators can just say, “No thank you, you can keep Faslaine, we’ll just move to Gibraltar.” ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/12 "2015-04-26T18:24:33Z")
I recall pointing out in one of the previous threads that there are plenty of other places that could serve in a pinch. There are plenty of places on the south coast. Devon and Cornwall have major jobs problems, for instance. And Barrow-in-Furness is still a major shipyard. It was never a real issue. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/13 "2015-04-26T18:49:32Z")
Speaking for myself, I just don’t understand why nuclear weapons are such a big issue. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/14 "2015-04-26T18:50:44Z")
I have consistently supported Faslane, because I’m tired of having to stop and give money to the toll-takers. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/15 "2015-04-26T19:23:31Z")
I remain confused about all these threads directed at die-hard Unionists, a population that may encompass 1-3 posters. That’s theoretical, as I don’t think I’ve ever seen them really appear in these threads. The reality is outside the United Kingdom I think the issue of Scottish independence has very little importance at all. It may bring up some interesting EU questions, but in terms of “topics of interest on the SDMB” I’d say it ranks very low. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/16 "2015-04-26T19:54:28Z")
The point was not that they’d never be abandoned, it was that, should Scotland wish to become independent, it will have to agree to keep the bases at least until new ones are created. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/17 "2015-04-26T21:05:52Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The point was not that they’d never be abandoned, it was that, should Scotland wish to become independent, it will have to agree to keep the bases at least until new ones are created. No. You claimed tat rUK would be able to maintain Faslane and Coulport by use of armed force as the land belonged to the UK. You said that the UK would force this to happen against the will of the Scottish people. You suggested that the UK had the right to retain the nuclear bases as sovereign territory. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/18 "2015-04-26T21:09:02Z")
> **[Gibraltar could be the new base for Trident](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3056359/Gibraltar-base-Britain-s-nuclear-submarines-3billion-SNP-succeeds-ejecting-Trident.html)** > > Moving Trident from the Clyde to Gibraltar could cost £3billion and take 10 years to complete, with the SNP threatening to hold Westminster to ransom over Britain's nuclear deterrent. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/19 "2015-04-26T21:19:32Z")
None of the articles you’ve linked to make Gibraltar sound like an attractive option. It seems like the least worst option after maintaining the current bases. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/20 "2015-04-26T21:22:50Z")
So is your point that a possible Gibraltar contingency plan is one more step in the unstoppable march towards Scottish Independance? When I visited Gibraltar was pretty packed in there. ISTM a lot of shuffling around would have to be done. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579.md?page=2)