# Scottish Independence and Nuclear Weapons **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 26, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579 "2015-04-26T16:43:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/21 "2015-04-26T21:29:44Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So is your point that a possible Gibraltar contingency plan is one more step in the unstoppable march towards Scottish Independance? > > When I visited Gibraltar was pretty packed in there. ISTM a lot of shuffling around would have to be done. It shows two things. One is that separation would mot necessarily be a destructive event- both sides would compromise. And that Westminster is at least thinking about options. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/22 "2015-04-26T21:41:04Z")
By definition separation would be a destructive event and the fact that a different naval/nuke base is not completely impossible hardly alters that fact. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/23 "2015-04-26T21:51:25Z")
I don’t believe that putting the UK’s nuclear subs so far from the UK, and so close to a Spain that is consistently unhappy with Gibraltar is a serious plan. And putting them in the US is a non-starter. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/24 "2015-04-26T21:56:05Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > No. You claimed tat rUK would be able to maintain Faslane and Coulport by use of armed force as the land belonged to the UK. You said that the UK would force this to happen against the will of the Scottish people. You suggested that the UK had the right to retain the nuclear bases as sovereign territory. Only if Scotland attempted to secede without an agreement, which won’t happen. If there was no agreement, then Scotland would remain UK sovereign territory until and unless the UK acknowledged otherwise, which would require massive international pressure. Which, again, wouldn’t happen. You seem to think that Scotland could decide tomorrow that it wants to be independent, and that would be a _fait accompli_ and the rUK would immediately have to leave, taking anything it wanted to keep with it. That’s not the way it works. If the rUK refused to countenance a deal of any sort after a future referendum victory by separatists, things might change, and international support might be on Scotland’s side. But that’s a slim possibility at best, and has nothing to do with the current situation. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/25 "2015-04-26T21:58:36Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It shows two things. One is that separation would mot necessarily be a destructive event- both sides would compromise. And that Westminster is at least thinking about options. Westminster would be grossly negligent not to be considering options, regardless of Scottish mutterings. And any independence will be damaging, if not destructive, to both countries regardless of compromise. It’s worth noting that Westminster is bending over backwards to compromise with Scotland, and is being repaid with more and more demands, rather than the compromise being returned. That’s not a sustainable situation. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/26 "2015-04-27T00:37:38Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I don’t believe that putting the UK’s nuclear subs so far from the UK, and so close to a Spain that is consistently unhappy with Gibraltar is a serious plan. Agreed. It would only increase tensions between Spain and UK. UK doesn’t necessarily have to start negotiating the return of Gib to Spain…but it’s foolish to do something as antagonistic as this. > [@](#): > > And putting them in the US is a non-starter. We’d be good hosts! And we’ve already promised to use US weapons to retaliate if UK is attacked, so, in a sense, the US’s weapons are Britain’s weapons. Does UK have a better ally? We already do joint training and maneuvers; our militaries really are pretty tightly integrated. Canada would be better, but I think they wouldn’t want them. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/27 "2015-04-27T01:28:26Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Speaking for myself, I just don’t understand why nuclear weapons are such a big issue. Do you want the Scots to have nukes? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/28 "2015-04-27T07:08:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Only if Scotland attempted to secede without an agreement, which won’t happen. If there was no agreement, then Scotland would remain UK sovereign territory until and unless the UK acknowledged otherwise, which would require massive international pressure. Which, again, wouldn’t happen. > > You seem to think that Scotland could decide tomorrow that it wants to be independent, and that would be a _fait accompli_ and the rUK would immediately have to leave, taking anything it wanted to keep with it. That’s not the way it works. > > If the rUK refused to countenance a deal of any sort after a future referendum victory by separatists, things might change, and international support might be on Scotland’s side. But that’s a slim possibility at best, and has nothing to do with the current situation. It depends what you mean by secession. Things have moved on. 1/ Increased support in all opinion polls for separation 2/ Increased anger at manner in which the current election is being managed. 3/ Likelihood of increased SNP majority at Holyrood next year. 4/ Likely effective exclusion of the SNP from the political structure at Westminster 5/ Admission by Ruth Davison that the Westminster agreement makes it difficult for opponents of a second referendum. 6/ Probable failure in meeting what was promised in the Vow. Unless things change I can see Westminster sleep walking into forcing secession. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/29 "2015-04-27T10:57:54Z")
i think it will be decided by the p-ratio, this question of the nuclear weapons. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/30 "2015-04-27T11:11:33Z")
I really hope Scotland is eaten by some Krakenesque monster. Or nuked by Putin. Or invaded by the Danes. Or the Tories win the election in Scotland. Anything to stop these infernal threads from popping up weekly. Simple answer, the Scots spent the better part of the last two centuries running other peoples Countries, its only fair that they are ruled by Westminister in return. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/31 "2015-04-27T11:16:47Z")
I’m sure an outline of an agreement would follow something along the lines of the treaty ports in Southern Ireland which were held by the British for nearly 20 years after Irish independence, they were given back with little fanfare, and although the treaty was derided by Churchill because of WWII, they lost importance due to facilities being built in Northern Ireland. Something similar will happen with Scotland, it won’t be much of a big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/32 "2015-04-27T11:45:23Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It depends what you mean by secession. Leaving the Union. It’s not a difficult word. > [@](#): > > Unless things change I can see Westminster sleep walking into forcing secession. No, you can’t. Westminster will not force secession upon Scotland, they will (if it happens) choose it for themselves. Nothing else you wrote has anything to do with my post, or the subject of this thread, ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/33 "2015-04-27T11:49:04Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I’m sure an outline of an agreement would follow something along the lines of the treaty ports in Southern Ireland which were held by the British for nearly 20 years after Irish independence, they were given back with little fanfare, and although the treaty was derided by Churchill because of WWII, they lost importance due to facilities being built in Northern Ireland. > > Something similar will happen with Scotland, it won’t be much of a big deal. One would hope so, but the rhetoric coming from certain places makes it look like it will be a big deal one way or the other. It shouldn’t be a big deal, and what should happen is that the ports should remain administered by the UK until a replacement has been created, but there’ll be screaming about stealing Scottish land and denying their sovereignty if that happens. And I don’t exactly have a lot of faith in the SNP to counter that rhetoric with common sense, based on what they’ve said in the referendum campaign and the current election one. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/34 "2015-04-27T12:09:50Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Do you want the Scots to have nukes? > > 😉 Yeah, they’d probably make up some game involving throwing them, and that’s not going to end well. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/35 "2015-04-27T13:17:46Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I’m sure an outline of an agreement would follow something along the lines of the treaty ports in Southern Ireland which were held by the British for nearly 20 years after Irish independence, they were given back with little fanfare, and although the treaty was derided by Churchill because of WWII, they lost importance due to facilities being built in Northern Ireland. > > Something similar will happen with Scotland, it won’t be much of a big deal. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/36 "2015-04-27T13:25:18Z")
The [Scotts](http://news.agropages.com/News/NewsDetail---4075.htm) are already nuking lawns all over America. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/37 "2015-04-27T13:41:39Z")
If only they could get those warp engines online faster … ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/38 "2015-04-27T15:33:57Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Speaking for myself, I just don’t understand why nuclear weapons are such a big issue. Well, watch a video of one detonating. They are a rather big issue indeed. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/39 "2015-04-28T12:04:09Z")
Anyone got a spare wall I can bang my head against? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2015, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579/40 "2015-04-28T12:38:03Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It depends what you mean by secession. Things have moved on. > > 1/ Increased support in all opinion polls for separation The only opinion poll that matters is a referendum. People are always much more willing to say “let’s separate!” when they’re not actually voting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scottish-independence-and-nuclear-weapons/718579.md?page=3)