# SCOTUS: 5-4, Bush's favor. Aww, mama, can this really be the end? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 13, 2000, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292 "2000-12-13T03:18:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292/1 "2000-12-13T03:18:54Z")
Do you think that Bush has really triumphed over Gore? Will Gore let this one die before '01? Does Gore stand a snowball’s chance in Hell in '04? Debate. (I’m getting this on the fly from ABC right now. Ain’t technology grand?) Background: SCOTUS (Supreme Court Of The United States, AP abbreviation) has said 5-4 that Bush’s electors from Florida are valid. If the electors are certified, Gore looks to have lost this race, because he legally cannot challenge electors chosen in accordance with laws passed before election day. In my cynicism, I still think this election will span the millenium (only a few weeks away now) but this really might be IT. I hope Bush wins. I really do. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292/2 "2000-12-13T03:22:56Z")
It seems pretty clear, based on what the NBC people have read from the opinions, that the majority has given its blessing (on top of its aid) to Bush’s running out of the clock. Technicalities and deadlines over democracy. Wonderful. ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292/3 "2000-12-13T03:24:37Z")
Well, it looks to be a complex decision, with a 7-2 vote (I think that was the number) to reverse the Florida SC decision as unconstitutional. Lots of dissents over various aspects of the decision. We’ve been hearing all weekend that if Gore didn’t win this time, he’d give up the chase. Heck, his own lawyer (Boiles) said that. Well, Gore sure didn’t win. Think we’ll hear that concession speech tonight? I’m not holding my breath. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292/4 "2000-12-13T03:29:30Z")
**RT** , you know that Bush has won. Recount after recount (three total, all made to order by Gore’s team) has shown Bush winning. Gore only wanted to count counties that served him. Gore only wanted the ballots that helped him to be counted (all the rich elderly but none of the military). The cry that ‘Every vote counts’ sounds hypocritical if you do things like that. Frankly, Bush has been more than fair with this weirdo. We should let Bush take his due and get on with four years of a Republican administration. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292/5 "2000-12-13T03:36:00Z")
It’s time to start pushing for a constitutional ammendment to make the seats on the supreme court into elected positions so that the bastards have to run for office just like all the other politicians. This “mystique of impartiality” is a crock ! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292/6 "2000-12-13T03:41:48Z")
George W. “Landslide” Bush. Lost the election. Won the power struggle. Nixon would be proud. The rest of us should be ashamed. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292/7 "2000-12-13T03:42:56Z")
Squink, you’re talking about the _Florida_ Supreme Court, right? ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292/8 "2000-12-13T03:44:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*It seems pretty clear, based on what the NBC people have read from the opinions, that the majority has given its blessing (on top of its aid) to Bush’s running out of the clock. > > Technicalities and deadlines over democracy. Wonderful. \*\* Yeah. That’s what they did. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*\*George W. “Landslide” Bush. Lost the election. Won the power struggle. Nixon would be proud. The rest of us should be ashamed. \*\* Knew we could count on you, elucidator. Stoid? ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292/9 "2000-12-13T03:46:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > It’s time to start pushing for a constitutional ammendment to make the seats on the supreme court into elected positions so that the bastards have to run for office just like all the other politicians. This “mystique of impartiality” is a crock ! Squink, I’m not real happy with this decision either. But, don’t you think your proposal is a bit rash? Yes, it is disappointing to see the Court so under the influence of political pressures. But, no, I don’t think the solution is to make it moreso! ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292/10 "2000-12-13T03:46:59Z")
The Court voted 7-2 that what the Florida Supreme Court did was completely fucked. Two justices said they should have another try; 5 took them at their word when they said four times that anything they did had to be done by Dec. 12 to protect their state’s electors. You’re going to spin this onto George Wo. Bush _how_, now? ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292/11 "2000-12-13T03:47:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > \*\*Squink, you’re talking about the _Florida_ Supreme Court, right? \*\* The Florida Supreme Court (of which all members have faced and won at least one retention vote in their careers) tonight decided unanimously not to disallow twenty-some thousand _Republican_ absentee ballots that were improperly printed (without serial numbers) and then filled in by Republican party members working in counting offices (adding serial numbers). Had they disallowed those ballots, Gore would have won Florida easily. Filthy, partisan, Democraticic-party-card-carrying bastards… ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292/12 "2000-12-13T03:48:10Z")
Where in the world do y’all get the idea it’s over? [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/12/12/scotus.election/) says the Court sent the decison back to the Florida Supreme Court “asking the Florida court to craft a statewide standard to count the votes.” Sure sounds to me like they want the votes counted, but under a single standard. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292/13 "2000-12-13T03:48:52Z")
Bush has truly won the electoral college, and that is how we elect our President in this country. Bush has won despite all the grandstanding and circuses provided by Gore. Bush has even won in the traditionally Democratic Florida (face it, only the votes in the counties Gore picked really ‘counted’). We knew from the outset that neither would have a landslide. We accepted that neither would have the majority of the public vote. That is how our system works. But Gore’s obstructions have only prolonged his defeat. Gore has run himself into the ground. Nobody will touch him with a 10-foot poll (sorry :)) come '04. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292/14 "2000-12-13T03:48:53Z")
To me, the worst thing about the decision is that it’s so nambly-pambly. I’m angry that they killed Gore, but didn’t have enough guts to do it overtly. He’s a hot potatoe, 😉 Nobody wanted to issue the coup de grace. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292/15 "2000-12-13T03:50:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > \*\*It’s time to start pushing for a constitutional ammendment … > \*\* It’s time to start pushing for federal funds to buy a balloting system that works. This whole mess is directly attributable to mechanical and procedural flaws in a logistical scheme for selecting who will be the most powerful man in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292/16 "2000-12-13T03:52:07Z")
Needless to say I completely agree with the following, from the dissenting opinion of Justice Stevens, with whom Justice Ginsburg and Justice Breyer joined… > [@](#): > > \*\*The Constitution assigns to the States the primary responsibility for determining the manner of selecting the Presidential electors. See Art. II, §1, cl. 2. When questions arise about the meaning of state laws, including election laws, it is our settled practice to accept the opinions of the highest courts of the States as providing the final answers. On rare occasions, however, either federal statutes or the Federal Constitution may require federal judicial intervention in state elections. This is not such an occasion. > > The federal questions that ultimately emerged in this case are not substantial.\*\* > [@](#): > > **The legislative power in Florida is subject to judicial review pursuant to Article V of the Florida Constitution, and nothing in Article II of the Federal Constitution frees the state legislature from the constraints in the state constitution that created it. Moreover, the Florida Legislature’ s own decision to em-ploy a unitary code for all elections indicates that it in-tended the Florida Supreme Court to play the same role in Presidential elections that it has historically played in resolving electoral disputes. The Florida Supreme Court’s exercise of appellate jurisdiction therefore was wholly consistent with, and indeed contemplated by, the grant of authority in Article II.** And I couldn’t have said it better myself. However, it ain’t over yet, folks. From what I understand, the SCOTUS has sent it back to the **Florida** Supreme Court (where it belonged in the first place) and they could still rule that recounts should continue and go about setting the “required” standards for how to conduct them. ::crossing fingers and fleeing the Bush gloaters:: ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292/17 "2000-12-13T03:55:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Derleth \* > \*\*Gore has run himself into the ground. Nobody will touch him with a 10-foot poll (sorry :)) come '04. \*\* On this, you’re wrong. Gore has a lot of reasons (arguable though they may be) to claim he did, in fact, win. He not only won the popular vote, but statistical analyses of the Florida vote that tried to eliminate the procedural irregularities almost all said that Gore won by a margin of thousands of votes. Within the Democratic party, he has a moral cause that may put him back on the ticket. If Gore doesn’t come back in '04, it’ll be because the Democratic party decides that Gore lost an election he should have won easily, and they need a better front man. ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292/18 "2000-12-13T03:56:40Z")
I’m listening to CNN **jab1** , and although technically they seem to be allowing the FL SC to look at it again, the US SC has allowed no real avenue for that to happen given the time frame. Anything the FL SC could come up with would have to undergo judicial review. They don’t have time, and I think the US SC knew this with the opinion. Maybe that was their way to end this thing. I agree with **Scylla** in that I would have hoped for a more direct ending. But, Hey! What am I talking about ending for? Still haven’t heard from team Gore. (Imagining Bush at the inauguration shaking off Gore who is hanging tenaciously onto his ankle) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292/19 "2000-12-13T04:10:12Z")
No. It says you can win, if you can prove that you got more votes. Of course, you can’t **count** the votes. That wouldn’t be right. Al has been backstabbed. Again. So be it. That which goes around, comes around. I remember when Newt Gingrich and crew were going take over, the Conservative Revolution was at hand, hippies, queers, treehuggers,secular humanists, all were going to the wall. He’s gone. We’re still here. They’ve stuck a time bomb in thier butts. 1 year, 11 months. And counting. Tick, tick, tick. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2000, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292/20 "2000-12-13T04:10:58Z")
Rhenquist: “Oh no, our guy is going to lose if they count the votes” Scalia: “Let’s stop the count, and then sit on our butts until the deadline passes” Rhenquist: “And then we can send it back to Florida to fix things so that we can claim we’re trying to play fair” Thomas: “But tell them they have to fix everything before the deadline” Sandra Day O’Connor: “Which we just let pass” Scalia: “While sitting on our butts” -With high powered reasoning like this going on, the positions should be elected. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-5-4-bushs-favor-aww-mama-can-this-really-be-the-end/45292.md?page=2)