# SCOTUS to hear case of praying ex-football coach (yet another "religious liberty" case) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2022, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891 "2022-01-16T11:02:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/1 "2022-01-16T11:02:49Z")
AP story here: > **[Supreme Court to hear case of praying ex-football coach](https://apnews.com/article/sports-football-religion-prayer-seattle-aa78a2dbe94d9223fee4b1567f850eef)** > > The Supreme Court says it will hear the case of a former Seattle-area football coach who was removed from his job because he refused to stop praying on the field. > [@](#): > > Former Bremerton High School coach Joe Kennedy’s lawyers say the religious beliefs of their client, who is Christian, “compelled him to give thanks through prayer at the conclusion of each game for what the players accomplished and for the opportunity to be part of their lives through football.” After games had ended and after both teams’ players and coaches met at midfield to shake hands, Kennedy would kneel and offer a silent or quiet prayer. > > His practice evolved, however. Students came to join him, and he eventually began to give motivational speeches that often included religious content and a short prayer. > > The school district says that when it learned what Kennedy was doing it tried to accommodate him, asking that he pray separately from students. But the district says Kennedy ultimately declined to change his practice, was put on paid leave and sued. Lower courts sided with the school district. Mr. Kennedy’s side: > [@](#): > > In a statement issued Friday after the court agreed to hear the case, Kelly Shackelford, the head of First Liberty Institute, which is representing Kennedy, said, “No teacher or coach should lose their job for simply expressing their faith while in public.” > > “By taking this important case, the Supreme Court can protect the right of every American to engage in private religious expression, including praying in public, without fear of punishment,” Shackelford said. The school district’s side: > [@](#): > > But the head of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, which represents the school district, said it had followed the law, calling Kennedy’s actions “coercive prayers.” > > “This case is not about a school employee praying silently during a private religious devotion. Rather, this case is about protecting impressionable students who felt pressured by their coach to participate repeatedly in public prayer, and a public school district that did right by its students and families,” Rachel Laser said in a statement. The SCOTUS side: > [@](#): > > In 2019, at an earlier stage of the case, the high court [rejected getting involved](https://apnews.com/article/5cefdfc84cb543d9ba2061ff7839d0e8). At that time, however, four conservative justices said while it was too early to get involved, they were interested in the case and the legal issues it raises. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/2 "2022-01-16T11:11:02Z")
I thought the Holy Rule Book was _against_ praying in public. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/3 "2022-01-16T12:41:15Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > I thought the Holy Rule Book was _against_ praying in public. In context it is against praying to glorify oneself. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/4 "2022-01-16T12:44:47Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > > [@running\_coach](#): > > > > I thought the Holy Rule Book was _against_ praying in public. > > In context it is against praying to glorify oneself. - Which is what the coach was doing. _Any_ praying in public is likely to cross the line unless care is taken that there is no outward sign. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/5 "2022-01-16T12:52:31Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Which is what the coach was doing. > _Any_ praying in public is likely to cross the line unless care is taken that there is no outward sign. I was talking about the context of the Bible as the ‘Holy Rule Book’, not secular laws. In a biblical context it would seem to be a judgment of one’s heart, not actions that matter and if he were praying to glorify himself would be a judgment of God, not man. You even infer this with your statement when you say ‘is likely’, which leaves room for reasonable doubt. And there are plenty of examples of Jesus praying in public, specifically for healing of others but much more also such as giving thanks which was exactly what this coach was doing, so there can be outward signs of prayer in public no problem at all biblically. However one could make the case that a christian should follow the authority they are under as an instruction, but then again at the very least God has overridden a no prayer instruction biblically. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/6 "2022-01-16T12:58:25Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > And there are plenty of examples of Jesus praying in public, specifically for healing of others but much more also such as giving thanks which was exaclty what this coach was doing, so there can be outward signs of prayer in public no problem at all there biblically. - He wasn’t praying, he was performing miracles. In fact, there are numerous examples of Christ going off to pray in private. > **[Jesus Sets Out Alone to Pray](https://wau.org/resources/article/re_jesus_sets_out_alone_to_pray/)** > > A Catholic Devotional Magazine based on the Daily Mass Readings ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/7 "2022-01-16T13:01:25Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > He wasn’t praying, he was performing miracles. > In fact, there are numerous examples of Christ going off to pray in private. He gave thanks publicly in prayer. Prayer includes giving thanks. So yes Jesus prayed in public. And yes preforming miracles by asking God is also prayer. And yes Jesus does go off in private too, not seeing an issue here at all. What you are saying just does not seem to be what the Bible says. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/8 "2022-01-16T13:04:24Z")
Also to add Paul mentions prayers meant for the unbeliever to hear, something like praying in tongues or perhaps praying but avoiding tongues. I forget which one is it. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/9 "2022-01-16T13:11:33Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Also to add Paul mentions prayers meant for the unbeliever to hear, something like praying in tongues or perhaps praying but avoiding tongues. I forget which one is it. - > **[Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 14:22-25 - New International Version](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2014%3A22-25&version=NIV)** > > Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not... > 22 **Tongues, then, are a sign,** not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 **So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in,** will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!” A sign-not under the control of the person. This seems to refer to a gathering not in public but in private which someone voluntarily enters. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/10 "2022-01-16T13:28:00Z")
Here is a good summary as I see it: [Is public prayer biblical? Is it okay to pray in public? | GotQuestions.org](https://www.gotquestions.org/public-prayer.html) But it all boils down to God judges the heart, not the act. That is the key difference. If the intent is to glorify oneself then that prayer will not be heard. If prayed earnestly, no matter what the circumstances the prayer will be heard. > 1 Peter 3:12: For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous > and his ears are attentive to their prayer, > but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”[[a] ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/11 "2022-01-16T13:29:50Z")
Or to put it another way, people search religion for rules of how to act, but that is not what God is about. It is only man’s request that gives hard and fast rules, but when it comes down to it, it’s love based, not rule based. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/12 "2022-01-16T13:40:27Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Here is a good summary as I see it: [Is public prayer biblical? Is it okay to pray in public? | GotQuestions.org](https://www.gotquestions.org/public-prayer.html) - All the examples given are from The Old Testament. Jesus laid down the directive about praying in public. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/13 "2022-01-16T13:42:22Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I was talking about the context of the Bible as the ‘Holy Rule Book’, not secular laws. In a biblical context it would seem to be a judgment of one’s heart, not actions that matter and if he were praying to glorify himself would be a judgment of God, not man. I don’t care if people around me pray, or even pray for me as long as I do not feel forced to participate. As to the whole self glorification thing, my take on that is thus [and sorry if I sound nasty, but I kept running into these asshats when I was living in the bible belt] - If you start waving a bible around, or your hands around and _LOUDLY_ start proclaiming a prayer that pretty much instantly draws everybodies attention to you, you are attempting to glorify yourself by proving how ‘holier than thou’ you are. I also dislike the megachurches. Back in about 87 I did a short stint at a telephone answering service, and was the middleman in a conversation between a mother with an ill child, and an actress for Pat Robertson’s studio. To make it short, mom wanted Pat to pray for her kid, actress said Pat wanted a specific amount of money to put her kid on the prayer list … I really REALLY wanted to tell the mom that God would listen to her more closely than someone that wants to be paid to pray. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/14 "2022-01-16T14:41:10Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I don’t care if people around me pray, or even pray for me as long as I do not feel forced to participate. > > As to the whole self glorification thing, my take on that is thus [and sorry if I sound nasty, but I kept running into these asshats when I was living in the bible belt] - If you start waving a bible around, or your hands around and _LOUDLY_ start proclaiming a prayer that pretty much instantly draws everybodies attention to you, you are attempting to glorify yourself by proving how ‘holier than thou’ you are. > … I agree with this and think it matches the context of the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/15 "2022-01-16T14:46:46Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > All the examples given are from The Old Testament. Jesus laid down the directive about praying in public. This is a typical statement of those who want it a certain way, and find it nice and need and help reconcile church and state, but the context of the example you have just does not support your contention. I’m even sure that believers have been swayed by your contention, but it is ultimately found to be something that if followed in the way you state would break scripture and also break grace (which ironically is what you lean on when you say Jesus changes things) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/16 "2022-01-16T14:50:50Z")
As noted in this case by Americans United for Separation of Church and State (and many others), no one can stop people from praying in public. Silent prayer can be accomplished during one’s work day with no one but the devout being the wiser. That of course defeats the purpose of prayer for many, which is to proselytize others. And sometimes, you’re just so jammed full of the Holy Spirit that it’s impossible to keep quiet. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yaMGJd1UqY) Still, _someone_ managed to avoid loud public exultation over his/her stash of big bucks in the bathroom wall at Joel Osteen’s megachurch. 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/17 "2022-01-16T15:02:58Z")
But did the prayers work? Did the [coach](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SHCsgqZvQM) win more games than he lost? And why did he pray after games had ended, would it not make more sense to pray asking for divine intervention in his team’s favour before the games? ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/18 "2022-01-16T15:48:55Z")
A direct petition is only one of a [number of forms of prayer.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer#Approaches_to_prayer) In this specific case, the individual in question claims, through his lawyers, that he was “giv[ing] thanks through prayer at the conclusion of each game for what the players accomplished and for the opportunity to be part of their lives through football.” He then went on “to give motivational speeches that often included religious content and a short prayer.” There’s no indication that I’ve seen that he was ever praying to win football games. What he was doing seems a lot more in line with what Wikipedia terms “educational” or “experiential” approaches. [Just to be clear, from what I’ve seen, I’m definitely on the school district’s side on this case, and I’m not defending the coach’s actions.] ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/19 "2022-01-16T16:01:45Z")
If I was one of his players, I swear I would start sacrificing goats in the end zone after every game. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/20 "2022-01-16T16:08:17Z")
Where will 'Muricans come down when the football team in deep red Baptist Texas is led in Quranic verses ? Isn’t it really _just that simple_ (not implying that this would be SCOTUS’s decision; just that it _should_ be). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891.md?page=2)