# SCOTUS to hear case of praying ex-football coach (yet another "religious liberty" case) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2022, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891 "2022-01-16T11:02:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/261 "2022-11-01T20:47:10Z")
The venue removes all gray area from the case. He was praying in the middle of the football field. Would you or I be allowed to go out to the middle of the football field after the game, for any purpose? We would not. The only reason he was allowed to be there in the first place was because he was an employee of the government-run school, and so everything he did out there, he did as an agent of government. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/262 "2022-11-01T23:14:25Z")
The SCOTUS, as an appeals court, does not determine or rule on the underlying facts of the case. That’s the purview of the lower court. You quoted the ruling yourself. Mr. Kennedy was disciplined for his decision to pray quietly without his students. The district’s policies were not neutral. That’s the basis of their ruling in his favor. Nothing to do with what may be in a youtube video or a CNN interview. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/263 "2022-11-01T23:27:29Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > The SCOTUS, as an appeals court, does not determine or rule on the underlying facts of the case. That’s the purview of the lower court. And yet, here they ruled by changing the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/264 "2022-11-01T23:40:00Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > The SCOTUS, as an appeals court, does not determine or rule on the underlying facts of the case. That’s the purview of the lower court. Precisely. And SCOTUS decided to overturn the lower courts, who all ruled against Kennedy, by deciding the underlying facts of the case, as used by those lower courts, were inconvenient and decided to change them. So, thank you for also agreeing SCOTUS just really screwed up no matter how you look at it. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/265 "2022-11-02T00:39:22Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > And SCOTUS decided to overturn the lower courts, who all ruled against Kennedy, by deciding the underlying facts of the case, as used by those lower courts, were inconvenient and decided to change them. Show us where the Supreme Court _changed_ the facts. Quote the trial court’s findings (where the facts are determined), compare that to the SCOTUS ruling, and show us what has changed. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/266 "2022-11-02T01:06:23Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Show us where the Supreme Court _changed_ the facts. Quote the trial court’s findings (where the facts are determined), compare that to the SCOTUS ruling, and show us what has changed Sure thing: > **[KENNEDY v. BREMERTON SCHO | 869 F.3d 813 (2017... | 20170823132| Leagle.com](https://www.leagle.com/decision/infco20170823132)** > > OPINION M. SMITH Circuit Judge Bremerton High School BHS football coach Joseph A. Kennedy appeals from the district court s order...20170823132 > [@](#): > > What he cannot do is claim the First > > [869 F.3d 830] > > Amendment’s protections for private-citizen speech when he kneels and prays on the fifty-yard line immediately after games in school logoed-attire in view of students and parents. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/267 "2022-11-02T01:16:21Z")
Thanks. And the facts of the case were re-iterated at each level up until SCOTUS. Lawyers are having some trouble with it. “What do we do if SCOTUS decides the facts of the case are suddenly no longer the facts of the case?” ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/268 "2022-11-02T02:57:32Z")
What facts did the Supreme Court _change_? In any case, here is what the Supreme Court actually held: “The Free Exercise and Free Speech Clauses of the First Amendment protect an individual engaging in a personal religious observance from government reprisal; the Constitution neither mandates nor permits the government to suppress such religious expression.” The School District, (and the lower courts that ruled in their favor), erred in relying on the abandoned _Lemon_ reasoning, claiming that they were trying to avoid an Establishment Clause violation. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/269 "2022-11-02T05:24:43Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > What facts did the Supreme Court _change_? Surely, you can’t be serious? That information has been posted multiple times in this very thread. Here it is again, presented as clearly as possible and all in a single post. Original court found: > [@Babale](#): > > What he cannot do is claim the First > > [869 F.3d 830] > > Amendment’s protections for private-citizen speech when **he kneels and prays on the fifty-yard line immediately after games in school logoed-attire in view of students and parents.** SCOTUS invents their own facts: > [@SCOTUS](#): > > The contested exercise here **does not involve leading prayers with the team** ; the District disciplined Mr. Kennedy only for his decision to persist in **praying quietly without his students** after three games in October 2015. In forbidding Mr. Kennedy’s brief prayer, the District’s challenged policies were neither neutral nor generally applicable ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/270 "2022-11-02T05:32:14Z")
More from the original ruling in case you want to nitpick the quote I chose: > [@](#): > > All told,\*\* by kneeling and praying on the fifty-yard line immediately after games\*\*, Kennedy was fulfilling his professional responsibility to **communicate demonstratively to students and spectators**. Yet, **he “took advantage of his position to press his particular views upon the impressionable and captive minds before him.”** ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/271 "2022-11-02T05:32:44Z")
Right. The lower court(s) got it wrong. According to the factual record, Kennedy was disciplined for praying quietly without his students. They can’t do that. Hence the ruling. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/272 "2022-11-02T05:33:29Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Right. The lower court(s) got it wrong. According to the factual record, Kennedy was disciplined for praying quietly without his students. …what are you talking about? This is not the case at all. There is video fucking evidence of this. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/273 "2022-11-02T05:50:46Z")
You quoted it yourself! “Praying quietly without his students”. That’s what he was disciplined for, which is unconstitutional. That was the question before the Court. From the ruling: "Shortly after the October 26 game, the District placed Mr. Kennedy on paid administrative leave and prohibited him from “participat[ing], in any capacity, in . . . football program activities.” Ibid. In a letter explaining the reasons for this disciplinary action, the superintendent criticized Mr. Kennedy for engaging in “public and demonstrative religious conduct while still on duty as an assistant coach” by offering a prayer following the games on October 16, 23, and 26. Id., at 102. The letter did not allege that Mr. Kennedy performed these prayers with students, and it acknowledged that his prayers took place while students were engaged in unrelated postgame activities. Id., at 103. Additionally, the letter faulted Mr. Kennedy for not being willing to pray behind closed doors. Id., at 102. In an October 28 Q&A document provided to the public, the District admitted that it possessed “no evidence that students have been directly coerced to pray with Kennedy.” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/274 "2022-11-02T06:12:44Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > The letter did not allege that Mr. Kennedy performed these prayers with students, and it acknowledged that his prayers took place while students were engaged in unrelated postgame activities. You can go look at the fucking videos that were posted earlier yourself. But you won’t, because apparently the Holy Words of Gorsuch mean more than actual fucking reality. This is extremely, EXTREMELY fucking scary. I know you agree with the outcome here, but try to think about the consequences if this kind of blatant ignoring of reality continues. I don’t see how the judiciary will retain any legitimacy at all if it continues pulling these sorts of stunts. This is how you end up with a constitutional crisis. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/275 "2022-11-02T19:08:52Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Amendment’s protections for private-citizen speech when **he kneels and prays on the fifty-yard line immediately after games in school logoed-attire in view of students and parents.** > [@SCOTUS](#): > > The contested exercise here **does not involve leading prayers with the team** ; the District disciplined Mr. Kennedy only for his decision to persist in **praying quietly without his students** after three games in October 2015. There is no change there at all. In the first, he prays in _view_ of students, in #2 he prays _without_ his students. It is quite easy to be in full view of a lot of people without being with them. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/276 "2022-11-02T19:10:10Z")
If only the prayers in this case also involved a prayer rug… ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/277 "2022-11-02T19:10:17Z")
If local politicians show up to join in, and local news shows up to cover it, is he just “in view” but not “with” them? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/278 "2022-11-02T19:12:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There is no change there at all. In the first, he prays in _view_ of students, in #2 he prays _without_ his students. It is quite easy to be in full view of a lot of people without being with them. Or you know…you can actually read the cited decision. From that same decision, listed under the factual background: > **[KENNEDY v. BREMERTON SCHO | 869 F.3d 813 (2017... | 20170823132| Leagle.com](https://www.leagle.com/decision/infco20170823132)** > > OPINION M. SMITH Circuit Judge Bremerton High School BHS football coach Joseph A. Kennedy appeals from the district court s order...20170823132 > [@](#): > > Eventually, Kennedy’s religious practice evolved to something more than his original prayer. He began giving short motivational speeches at midfield after the games. Students, coaches, and other attendees from both teams were invited to participate. During the speeches, the participants kneeled around Kennedy, who raised a helmet from each team and delivered a message containing religious content. Kennedy subsequently acknowledged that these motivational speeches likely constituted prayers. Note the news articles/videos I linked above show him doing exactly this - lifting helmets from both teams and delivering religiously motivated speeches. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/279 "2022-11-02T19:16:58Z")
But was he really _with_ them? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2022, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/280 "2022-11-02T19:22:39Z")
I’m not even sure there’s a ‘debate’ anymore. When people can’t even agree on facts for which there are gobs of incontrovertible evidence, it turns into an exercise in contradiction, which, I believe, is down the hall. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891.md?page=15)