# SCOTUS to hear case of praying ex-football coach (yet another "religious liberty" case) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2022, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891 "2022-01-16T11:02:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/341 "2022-11-08T21:23:03Z")
Regardless of whether it was technically a private or public prayer, the question really comes down to whether having the schools representative kneeling down in the middle of the field at a school sponsored event with the intention of gathering the members of the audience in a group prayer to a particular god gives the impression that the school endorses that religion. I, along with the school board, and the lower courts say it does, the Supreme court apparently either disagrees or doesn’t care. ETA: an edited version of the final sentence of my post was completed after Running\_coach responded. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/342 "2022-11-08T21:25:02Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Regardless of whether it was technically a private or public prayer, the question really comes down to whether having the schools reprentative kneeling down in the middle of the field at a school sponsored event with the intention of gathering the members of the audience in a group prayer to a particular god give the impression that the school endorses that religion. **I say it does, the court apparently disagrees.** - Even worse, the Court _approves._ ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2022, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/343 "2022-11-08T22:45:47Z")
That wasn’t the case before the Supreme Court. If, for example, a student, through their parent, sued Bremerton on Establishment Clause grounds, that would be a separate case. In THIS case, Mr. Kennedy sued Bremerton because his Free Exercise rights were violated. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2022, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/344 "2022-11-09T00:39:44Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > In THIS case, Mr. Kennedy sued Bremerton because his Free Exercise rights were violated. …to prevent him from breeching the Establishment Clause. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2022, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/345 "2022-11-09T05:15:06Z")
And the Court explained that “preventing him from breeching the Establishment Clause” does NOT override his rights under Free Exercise. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2022, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/346 "2022-11-09T22:42:30Z")
Which gutted the Establishment Clause. Heck, even the cherished by all first amendment right to free speech is circumscribed by time, place and manner restrictions and that was made up by the supreme court. In this case we have a whole amendment restricting what the coach was doing and the SCOTUS just ignored it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2022, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/347 "2022-11-09T23:05:49Z")
Just to be clear here: What happened in this case was that an agent of the government was using his position as an agent of the government to compel people to pray in a manner that is explicitly prohibited by their religion, and the Supreme Court said that that was OK. The Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause aren’t two separate things to be balanced against each other, but two aspects of the same thing, because allowing any establishment hinders the free exercise of everyone who’s not part of that establishment. By gutting the establishment clause, the Court also gutted the free exercise clause. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2022, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/348 "2022-11-09T23:09:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > By gutting the establishment clause, the Court also gutted the free exercise clause. - I expect that’s the intent. Wait until all the Christians find they’re under the rule of the Catholic Church. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2022, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/349 "2022-11-09T23:37:27Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Wait until all the Christians find they’re under the rule of the Catholic Church. Just like fascism, theocracy sounds great until you find out that you aren’t the one in charge. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2022, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/350 "2022-11-09T23:42:26Z")
Sorta like marriage. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/351 "2022-11-11T06:38:38Z")
I’m sorry, but this is incorrect. Establishment and Free Exercise are independent clauses; the govt cannot abridge either one. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/352 "2022-11-11T11:44:23Z")
They’re two clauses that describe one right. Which the Supreme Court abridged. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/353 "2022-11-11T14:11:03Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > I’m sorry, but this is incorrect. Establishment and Free Exercise are independent clauses; the govt cannot abridge either one. Sure they can. I’m not allowed to offer blood sacrifice to the great god Quetzcoatl am I? Same goes for Christians, who are not legally allowed to undertake such noble Christian traditions as Crusading or Inquisitioning. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/354 "2022-11-11T21:53:51Z")
They’re separate, with different goals, and they work in different ways. The Court has long recognized the tension between the two; see _Everson v Board of Education_ (1947). One clause does not take precedence over the other. Further discussion here: [Relationship Between the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses | Constitution Annotated | Congress.gov | Library of Congress](https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt1-5/ALDE_00000039/) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/355 "2022-11-11T21:58:35Z")
One clause does not take precedence over the other because, again, they’re aspects of the same right. If there were any Christians on that football team, their right to free exercise of religion was abridged, by being compelled by an agent of the government to pray in a way prohibited by their religion. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/356 "2022-11-11T22:05:43Z")
A prayer by a Christian, Jew, or Muslim doesn’t infringe on anyone else’s right to pray as they wish, or to not pray at all. Both Houses of Congress typically open with a daily prayer; are the rights of the Catholic members infringed when a Rabbi leads that day? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/357 "2022-11-11T22:08:48Z")
It would if the Rabbi leads _every_ day. What other denominations did that coach share the field with? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/358 "2022-11-11T22:10:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > in a way prohibited by their religion. Eh, it was only Jesus who said not to pray in public, and I’ve met _very few_ christians who follow any of the things that he said. Now, if they were a Christian that followed Jesus, you’d have a point, but I have no reason to suspect that they are a part of that fairly rare belief. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/359 "2022-11-11T22:22:36Z")
He was disciplined, by the District’s own admission, for praying alone. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/360 "2022-11-11T22:25:06Z")
I really don’t know who’s question you are answering, because it certainly isn’t mine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891.md?page=19)