# SCOTUS to hear case of praying ex-football coach (yet another "religious liberty" case) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2022, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891 "2022-01-16T11:02:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/101 "2022-01-20T13:27:09Z")
Hey, I’ve got a great idea. How about if kids and adults are permitted to pray as much and as hard as they want while at home? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/102 "2022-01-20T14:19:25Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Prayer and devotions from 8:00-8:05. Any student who appears by at least 8:06 will not be marked tardy or otherwise penalized. Is that _any_ student, or any student who participated in the prayer? Can I show up at 8:06 and say that I was taking a nap without being marked tardy? If so, then class just starts at 8:06, not 8:00, and that’s whatever. If not, then they are giving preference to students based on their religious practices. > [@UltraVires](#): > > In what universe is sitting silent, respectfully allowing _others_ to pray around you an adoption of the beliefs in those prayers? In what universe would other students be expected to sit silent and respectfully while I pray to the pastafarian gods? What discipline should be given to a student who laughs at the colander on my head as I wave floppy noodles around? The same as that of a student who talks while the teacher or coach is leading a prayer? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/103 "2022-01-20T14:23:10Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > My only argument in this thread is that a ruling in favor of the coach must logically overrule the school prayer cases. I don’t see the meaningful difference between what the coach is doing and a teacher leading a prayer in front of a class. This may be where wires are getting crossed in this thread. Most of the arguments in this thread are that the actions of the coach should not be allowed, and at least partly because it would go against prior precedent of school prayer cases. I’d agree that allowing the coach to pray at a school function would open up precedent that would give permission to other school faculty and staff to find it appropriate to lead students in prayer. That’s part of why the coach should be ruled against. Not saying that SCOTUS won’t rule in favor of the coach. I don’t think that they should, but given the partisan makeup of the court, I won’t be surprised if they start to tear down the wall of separation between church and state. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/104 "2022-01-20T15:09:44Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Forcing a student to pray would be mandating a religious practice. Telling a student to be orderly while a practice is ongoing that _others_ are participating in is just good manners. Doing it in my (required) presence is forcing me to be a part of it, like it or not. Why should any non-believer be subjected to public displays of false piety? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/105 "2022-01-20T15:48:19Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Hey, I’ve got a great idea. How about if kids and adults are permitted to pray as much and as hard as they want while at home? Do they have to have the curtains closed, in case somebody sees them through the window? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/106 "2022-01-20T15:49:24Z")
^On their own private property? Of course not. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/107 "2022-01-20T16:25:51Z")
If the coach was an out, loud, and proud bigot, would we support forcing students to listen to his racist/homophobic jokes, even if we granted that “they didn’t have to laugh” at them ? Freeze peach, right ? There’s a hostile educational environment, here, and – to repeat myself – it’s easier to ‘let it slide’ when the demographic is nearly monolithic. Is it okay to talk about a woman’s breasts at your place of employment where men, women, and non-binary people work ? What if you don’t “force them to participate in” the conversation ? Can a “hostile work environment” charge be extended to the FedEx delivery person who gets cat calls when he shows up at your office in his summer shorts ? As I said before, I won’t try to predict which way SCOTUS will decide, but … if you swapped out the fact pattern with Quranic verses, I strongly suspect the public’s response would be different. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/108 "2022-01-20T16:35:38Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Do they have to have the curtains closed, in case somebody sees them through the window? No. Though, if they wanted to play up their martyrdom and persecution complex, then I suppose they could. An unhealthy persecution complex and a desire to try to play up martyrdom would really be the only reason that anyone would even think that that would be relevant. So, why do you ask? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/109 "2022-01-20T16:49:04Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > A prayer at the beginning of class is light years different from having something like the Church of the United States with the President being the leader. And what is being pushed by religious right wingers is light years different from just a simple “prayer at the beginning of class”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/110 "2022-01-20T16:54:21Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Also, the school has made it explicitly clear that the coach is _not_ acting as an agent of the school. And the “nudge nudge wink wink” hypotheticals you propose are unlikely to fool anyone, not least the SCOTUS. It doesn’t have to “fool” SCOTUS. It just has to give the thin veneer of reasonableness that the people placed on SCOTUS to nudge this country in the “proper” direction need to let it slip by. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/111 "2022-01-20T17:17:54Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, why do you ask? When @kayaker suggested “How about if kids and adults are permitted to pray as much and as hard as they want while at home?” he _might_ have been implying that that’s the only place they should be allowed to pray. If that was what he meant, then he’s wrong. The First Amendment doesn’t give us completely unlimited freedom of speech, religion, and assembly, but it certainly doesn’t limit those freedoms to only what we do on our own private property. Completely forbidding people from praying, talking about religion, etc. in public _would_ legitimately be religious persecution. On the other hand, if that was not what he meant, then what he was doing was coming into a discussion about where the line is or should be drawn, and suggesting that people be allowed to engage in behavior that is well and clearly to one side of the line, which I don’t think is helpful or relevant. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/112 "2022-01-20T17:25:40Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > he _might_ have been implying that that’s the only place they should be allowed to pray. I doubt it, and it would take a rather perverse twisting of his words to come to that conclusion. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > suggesting that people be allowed to engage in behavior that is well and clearly to one side of the line I don’t think that he was suggesting anything about what they “be allowed to engage in”. You’d have to add a bunch of words and substitute some others from what was actually used to come to that conclusion. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > which I don’t think is helpful or relevant. So, are you saying that he should only be allowed to engage in speech that _you_ find helpful and relevant while at home? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/113 "2022-01-20T17:55:25Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > he _might_ have been implying that that’s the only place they should be allowed to pray. No, I don’t care where they pray as long as it isn’t taking time away from reading/writing/arithmetic type stuff at school or imposing religion on others. Freedom _from_ religion is as important to me as freedom _of_ religion. Seriously, pray from the moment you leave school grounds right up until you return to school. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/114 "2022-01-20T18:17:30Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Seriously, pray from the moment you leave school grounds right up until you return to school. Or quietly _at_ school when they hand out the pop quiz. Just keep it to yourself at school . ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2022, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/115 "2022-01-20T18:22:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I don’t think that he was suggesting anything about what they “be allowed to engage in”. I honestly didn’t know what he was suggesting. > [@kayaker](#): > > No, I don’t care where they pray as long as it isn’t taking time away from reading/writing/arithmetic type stuff at school or imposing religion on others. Thank you for clarifying. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2022, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/116 "2022-01-21T00:44:30Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > It would be a very tricky needle to thread if they allow the coach’s behavior but disallow school prayer. Yes, that is the point I am making. The coach on the field and the teacher in class are different in the sense that everything is different, but legally speaking, I don’t see the difference. You have an audience who is there for some other purpose, young and impressionable, and feel implicit “coercion” to join with what the coach and their peers are doing. > [@kayaker](#): > > Hey, I’ve got a great idea. How about if kids and adults are permitted to pray as much and as hard as they want while at home? Sure, and one can only be gay at home as well. What are these font of rights that can only be practiced at home and how valuable is that? What support in the Constitution says that religion can only be practiced at home? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Is that _any_ student, or any student who participated in the prayer? Can I show up at 8:06 and say that I was taking a nap without being marked tardy? Anyone. Show up at 8:06 and no punishment at all. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > In what universe would other students be expected to sit silent and respectfully while I pray to the pastafarian gods? > > What discipline should be given to a student who laughs at the colander on my head as I wave floppy noodles around? The same as that of a student who talks while the teacher or coach is leading a prayer? This universe. They are school children. They are required to, at minimum, sit quietly and be respectful. They may not be forced to practice religion or believe anything they don’t want, religious or otherwise, but just like how they have to be quiet when they find the teacher or a guest speaker boring, they have to be silent during the prayer. That is not remotely forcing them to believe the religious views. Punishment is the same for laughing at the colander as laughing at Mrs. Bertha, the English teacher’s fat ass. > [@silenus](#): > > Doing it in my (required) presence is forcing me to be a part of it, like it or not. Why should any non-believer be subjected to public displays of false piety? > [@kayaker](#): > > Freedom _from_ religion is as important to me as freedom _of_ religion. Where do people get the idea that not only are you entitled to believe as you choose but that you must be free to never be in sight of any religious activity ever? Maybe you might personally want that, but that is eons from what the Constitution requires on any reasonable reading. > [@Procrustus](#): > > Just keep it to yourself at school . Why must a student keep it to himself or herself at school? What else should the student not be permitted to disclose to others at school? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2022, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/117 "2022-01-21T14:24:06Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > They are required to, at minimum, sit quietly and be respectful. They may not be forced to practice religion or believe anything they don’t want, religious or otherwise, but just like how they have to be quiet when they find the teacher or a guest speaker boring, they have to be silent during the prayer. That is not remotely forcing them to believe the religious views. Punishment is the same for laughing at the colander as laughing at Mrs. Bertha, the English teacher’s fat ass. So, your kid comes home with a detention slip for laughing as his teacher puts a colander on his head and chants pasta recipes while waving spaghetti noodles around the classroom. You gonna object to that discipline? > [@UltraVires](#): > > Where do people get the idea that not only are you entitled to believe as you choose but that you must be free to never be in sight of any religious activity ever? Where did you get the idea that that is what they are asking for? What is being asked is that, in places where you are obligated to be, you are not subject to other’s religious beliefs and practices. That’s a huge difference from how you have chosen to restate the objection. > [@UltraVires](#): > > Maybe you might personally want that, but that is eons from what the Constitution requires on any reasonable reading. What is eons from a reasonable reading is your misrepresentation of what other posters have said in this thread. > [@UltraVires](#): > > Why must a student keep it to himself or herself at school? What else should the student not be permitted to disclose to others at school? You once again have misread what the poster you replied to said, maybe if you read the whole quote, rather than just the part you selectively quoted, you may have understood better. They did not say that one could not disclose that they are religious, they said that they should not be praying openly and loudly in school. You are asking students to keep their laughter at ridiculous religious practices to themselves, but not the ridiculous religious practices themselves. Do you really not see how you are talking out of both sides of your mouth on this? As far as your last question, do you think that a student should be permitted to disclose how fat they think Mrs. Bertha the English teacher’s ass is? Should they do so openly and in class, or should they keep it to themself? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2022, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/118 "2022-01-21T18:14:55Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > n what universe is sitting silent, respectfully allowing _others_ to pray around you an adoption of the beliefs in those prayers? Were those in attendance at the end of the football game required to sit silent respectfully allowing “others” to pray? I don’t recall seeing that in the article. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2022, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/119 "2022-01-21T22:56:55Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Sure, and one can only be gay at home as well. What are these font of rights that can only be practiced at home and how valuable is that? What support in the Constitution says that religion can only be practiced at home? As you well know, no rights are limitless. The coach’s free exercise rights can be limited if the exercise of them causes a violation of the Establishment Clause. Which, as the 9th Circuit points out, is the case here. The coach was given a multitude of opportunities and accommodations to use his free exercise rights in such a way as to avoid a confrontation with the Establishment Clause. But that wasn’t good enough for the coach. As the opinion points out: “Although I discuss the events in greater detail below, the reader should know the following basic truth ab initio: Kennedy was never disciplined by BHS for offering silent, private prayers. In fact, the record shows clearly that Kennedy initially offered silent, private prayers while on the job from the time he began working at BHS, but added an increasingly public and audible element to his prayers over the next approximately seven years before the Bremerton School District (BSD) leadership became aware that he had invited the players and a coach from another school to join him and his players in prayer at the fifty-yard line after the conclusion of a football game. He was disciplined only after BSD tried in vain to reach an accommodation with him after he (in a letter from his counsel) demanded the right to pray in the middle of the football field immediately after the conclusion of games while the players were on the field, and the crowd was still in the stands. He advertised in the area’s largest newspaper, and local and national TV stations, that he intended to defy BSD’s instructions not to publicly pray with his players while still on duty even though he said he might lose his job as a result. As he said he would, Kennedy prayed out loud in the middle of the football field immediately after the conclusion of the first game after his lawyer’s letter was sent, surrounded by players, members of the opposing team, parents, a local politician, and members of the news media with television cameras recording the event, all of whom had been advised of Kennedy’s intended actions through the local news and social media.” [9th Circuit Opinion](https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2021/07/19/20-35222.pdf) Let’s not pretend this is some poor guy who just wanted to pray. He wanted, and got, an entire circus. He wanted to create a confrontation and did. Now this Court gets another opportunity to roll back prior jurisprudence to serve its Republican base. I’m reminded of a guy named Matthew, who said: “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. … But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.” ---
**Author:** ![Mirtha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@Mirtha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mirtha)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2022, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891/120 "2022-01-26T00:45:08Z")
They need the Satanists to help them think this through. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-to-hear-case-of-praying-ex-football-coach-yet-another-religious-liberty-case/957891.md?page=7)