# SCOTUS Wife Virginia Thomas asks Anita Hill to apologize - WTF? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 20, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798 "2010-10-20T16:56:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/461 "2010-10-22T22:06:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No other woman said she was sexually harassed by Thomas. From [Sleeping Dogs Department](http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/10/22/130757782/clarence-thomas-former-girlfriend-speaks-out?ft=1&f=1001): > [@](#): > > Virginia Thomas’ [request for an apology from Anita Hill](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130709372) for accusing Clarence Thomas of sexual harassment during his Supreme Court confirmation hearings in 1991 has prompted Thomas’ former girlfriend to break her silence about the man she used to date. > > Lillian McEwen agreed to speak about Clarence Thomas with [Washington Post reporter Michael Fletcher](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/21/AR2010102106645.html?wprss=rss_nation/special/1), whose story quotes her as saying that Thomas was “always actively watching the women he worked with to see if they could be potential partners. It was a hobby of his.” > > As Fletcher tells NPR’s Robert Siegel, in his discussions with McEwen, “she talks about a Clarence Thomas that in some ways resembled the Clarence Thomas that Anita Hill talked about at the hearings.” > > … > > Her story also includes explicit details of her relationship with Thomas, which she said included a freewheeling sex life. Given that history, she said Hill’s long-ago description of Thomas’s behavior resonated with her. > > “He was obsessed with porn,” she said of Thomas, who is now 63. “He would talk about what he had seen in magazines and films, if there was something worth noting.” > > McEwen added that she had no problem with Thomas’s interests, although she found pornography to be “boring.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/462 "2010-10-22T22:51:23Z")
Well, that might make Hill’s claims more plausible, but technically McEwan isn’t claiming sexual harassment against her, nor is she specifically describing any harassment of other women. Actually, the more I think about it, the less significant the whole sexual harassment thing seems. The problem now is the dogged determination that it didn’t happen, it _couldn’t_ happen, and anyone suggesting otherwise better apologize, in a robotic binary fashion that brooks no ambiguity and which we’ve seen quite a lot of in the last ten years from various high-ranking Republicans. Fuck, just shut up about it, Virginia - people will believe what they want to, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/463 "2010-10-22T23:14:14Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, that might make Hill’s claims more plausible, but technically McEwan isn’t claiming sexual harassment against her, nor is she specifically describing any harassment of other women. Talking about pornography with a girlfriend isn’t harassment, but talking explicitly about pornography to an employee is. If McEwen’s experience is similar to Hill’s it would corroborate Hill’s claim of harassment. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/464 "2010-10-22T23:18:56Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The problem now is the dogged determination that it didn’t happen, it _couldn’t_ happen, and anyone suggesting otherwise better apologize But you do agree that if we assume it didn’t happen, then she should apologize? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/465 "2010-10-22T23:23:47Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > From [Sleeping Dogs Department](http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/10/22/130757782/clarence-thomas-former-girlfriend-speaks-out?ft=1&f=1001): Talking about porn with a woman you are dating does not constitute harassment. So why in the world would you offer up this story to rebut the charge that no other woman said Thomas harassed her? Did this woman say Thomas harassed her? No. Did she say she saw or heard him harass anyone else? No. So what was the point of your post? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/466 "2010-10-22T23:26:17Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > As a final can-kick, what if her income from the lobbying group (or whatever it is) is more than he makes as a Justice? If she’s buying things that become marital assets, a case can be made that he’s deriving benefit from one of the sides of the case. > > Of course, there may be no immediate indication his wife will get fired if he votes for Obamacare in a relevant proceeding. If she were head of an organization that lived and died on the existence of Obamacare, perhaps there’d be a point here. But so far as i can tell, her organization is a general supporter of libertarian and conservative causes, not one formed specifically to defeat Obamacare. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/467 "2010-10-22T23:27:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Talking about porn with a woman you are dating does not constitute harassment. So why in the world would you offer up this story to rebut the charge that no other woman said Thomas harassed her? Did this woman say Thomas harassed her? No. Did she say she saw or heard him harass anyone else? No. > > So what was the point of your post? What I said in #463: > [@](#): > > Talking about pornography with a girlfriend isn’t harassment, but talking explicitly about pornography to an employee is. If McEwen’s experience is similar to Hill’s it would corroborate Hill’s claim of harassment. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/468 "2010-10-22T23:28:10Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > But I’d say he was being a mite tone deaf (and well as tone blind and tone dumb) - wouldn’t you? Yes, I would. But remember that what I object to arises when we assume that Hill knows she lied, and Thomas knows Hill knows she lied. How did your lesbian bar example capture that aspect? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/469 "2010-10-22T23:39:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t see an offer of peace. I don’t see an offer of _anything_ in return, not even a kind word. Just a passive-aggressive (and really snotty) accusation and demand. This is how I see it as well, and it would be just as stupid if Hill had left a message asking Thomas to apologize. It’s a case of unstoppable cannonball meets unmovable wall. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/470 "2010-10-23T00:04:01Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > But you do agree that if we assume it didn’t happen, then she should apologize? 😃 Well, we can assume an apology is justified, I assume, if we’re to make that assumption. But don’t hold me to it. > [@Bricker](#): > > If she were head of an organization that lived and died on the existence of Obamacare, perhaps there’d be a point here. But so far as i can tell, her organization is a general supporter of libertarian and conservative causes, not one formed specifically to defeat Obamacare. Well, I don’t see a problem, then. On the assumption (heh) that the docile housewife stereotype is fading, I’d expect members of SCOTUS that have spouses to have spouses that work, and since Washington is a political town, a SCOTUS spouse could easily have a political job. I wouldn’t want to analyze the Thomases without some equivalent details about other SCOTUS justices and spouses. It would be unfair. In any case, Virginia Thomas embarassed herself, probably on an angry passive-aggressive whim. Who _hasn’t_ done that? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/471 "2010-10-23T00:21:51Z")
Now, certainly we cannot assume that simply because she is libertarian/conservative, that means she is opposed to ObamaCare! Why, she might just be one of the many, many principled conservatives who strongly support ObamaCare. Like…uh…well, like…uh…hmmmm… Help me out here, **Bricker**. Memory shot, you know how it is. Maybe just the top five names… ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/472 "2010-10-23T01:08:19Z")
Seriously, Bricker? You were a PD. If you were representing the defendant in a lawsuit and the judge’s wife were engaged by a company that got a benefit from the State winning (say the company was also suing in civil court and would benefit from a criminal conviction), you wouldn’t scream for recusal of the judge? ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/473 "2010-10-23T01:08:55Z")
Forgive me but I only read a few posts in and only had the pleasure of reading **Bricker’s** entertaining adjustments to the hypothetical. Did it look like this by the last page: "…Ok, so it’s been proven with a complete video history of their lives that Anita Hill was incorrect, not only that, through advances in deciphering neural activity, we are able to determine that she herself did not believe it happened, and further, when we analyzed her neural reactions to the voice mail, it was clear there was some portion of her brain that was receptive to the idea of “olive branches” in general (although we couldn’t ascertain if it applied to this situation specifically), and furthermore Ms Thomas’ neural activity was proven to show that she was detecting the potential affect of her voicemail on Ms Hill as she was recording it, thus leading her to believe that she at least had small but non-zero chance at convincing Ms Hill to apologize. Now, then, given that - is she still tone deaf?" ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/474 "2010-10-23T01:35:35Z")
The phone call makes Virginia Thomas look like an idiot. If that wasn’t her intent, she’s tone deaf. If that was her intent, congratulations. She’s not tone deaf, just a fucking weirdo. ---
**Author:** ![emmaliminal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7bcc69/32.png) [@emmaliminal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emmaliminal)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/475 "2010-10-23T01:38:40Z")
> [@villa](#): > > … Oh, apart from that sterling contribution of… > > > [@WordMan](#): > > > > +1 > > Way to go, sparky. Way to go. But… but… he was plusoneing [_me_](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13049855&postcount=293). ☹ ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/476 "2010-10-23T01:54:54Z")
So we are looking for a narrow definition of harassment that would exonerate Thomas by allowing him to ooze out? Sorry, but his ruling on the case against strip searching a 13 year old girl, his problems with Anita Hill and his interest in porn attested to by a long term ex girl friend, builds a damning case. He is a pig. He has problems telling the truth and he is a crappy judge, which almost every body agreed on when the Repubs pushed through his nomination,because they knew how he would vote. He is a low point of Supreme Court Judges. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/477 "2010-10-23T03:01:09Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Seriously, Bricker? You were a PD. If you were representing the defendant in a lawsuit and the judge’s wife were engaged by a company that got a benefit from the State winning (say the company was also suing in civil court and would benefit from a criminal conviction), you wouldn’t scream for recusal of the judge? If I thought the judge wasn’t going to go my way? Of course. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/478 "2010-10-23T03:24:27Z")
It’s the American way! ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/479 "2010-10-23T05:02:28Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > The phone call makes Virginia Thomas look like an idiot. > > If that wasn’t her intent, she’s tone deaf. > > If that was her intent, congratulations. She’s not tone deaf, just a fucking weirdo. I suspect that her intent was to be able to say that she extended an olive branch, and was rebuffed by Anita Hill who wouldn’t even return her call. Virginia Thomas tried to storm the moral high ground only to be parried by the public release of the text of her voice message. Terse, factual, to-the-point reporting has a way of cutting through people’s BS. Still, Mrs. Thomas’ approach might have worked had Hill not been in the mood to deal with the situation. ---
**Author:** ![groo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecd19e/32.png) [@groo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groo)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2010, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/480 "2010-10-23T06:05:38Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > … > > So - wait: am I a bad guy or are you being sarcastic and pointing out that, IYHO, I let Ms. Thomas off too easy? For my part, specifically to try to minimize the likelihood of political snipping, I tried to focus on the basic human act, and yeah, I found it surprising, and surprising that she felt it was reasonable, not offensive, etc. > > … You let her off too easily. She acted like an asshole. I apologize in advance for the next several hundred posts regarding the commonly accepted definition of “asshole.” > [@Gadarene](#): > > “[Section] 455(a) requires judicial recusal ‘if a reasonable person, knowing all the circumstances, would expect that the judge would have actual knowledge’ of his interest or bias in the case.” Sao Paulo State of Fed. Rep. of Brazil v. Am. Tobacco Co., 535 U.S. 229, 232-33 (2002) (quoting Liljeberg v. Health Servs. Acquisition Corp., 486 U.S. 847, 861 (1988)). > > … This pit thread is degenerating into a debate. This makes me go :(. Can’t we step up the ad hominem attacks? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798.md?page=25)