# SCOTUS Wife Virginia Thomas asks Anita Hill to apologize - WTF? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 20, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798 "2010-10-20T16:56:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/521 "2010-10-25T00:43:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, that, plus > [ul][li]Hill’s testimony conflicted in several places with the known facts, including a time line that made it impossible for Thomas to have committed the acts of which she accused him.[/li][li]A complete lack of any corroboration of sexual harassment by Thomas of Anita Hill or any one else[/li][li]the fact that every other person who ever worked with Thomas, from the beginning of his career to the present, believed Thomas and not Hill[/li][li]the fact that Anita Hill’s behavior was much more characteristic of a woman scorned than of the victim of a harasser[/li][li]that Hill had opportunities to avoid the behavior she alleged was so unwelcome by doing nothing. Instead, she chose to follow her alleged harasser from job to job and maintained contact.[/li][li]that Anita Hill had made other, unsubstantiated charges of sexual harassment previously[/li][li]that Anita Hill attempted to make her accusation anonymously, so as to avoid the consequences of false accusation[/li][li]that, far from courageously speaking the truth to power, she was forced into public testimony by Nina Totenberg - another woman who lied about being sexually harassed to cover up her (Totenberg’s) failure - in Totenberg’s case, an ethical failure (plagiarism) - and/or by Sen. Paul Simon or one of his staffers, who committed a felony in doing so.[/li][/ul]Although at this late date, it is probably too much to expect that Hill would come clean about her false testimony. Her whole career is based on not doing so. So it is not much of an olive branch. > > Regards, > Shodan I love how you pull shit from your ass and call it chocolate frosting. Do provide a cite for any of this. At least a few of those bullshit accusations can be blown out o the water by _Strange Justice_. Anybody who seriously cites ‘scorned woman’ as an attack on a women is living in the Seventeenth Century, from which the line and the play it’s from came: _The Mourning Bride_ by Congreve. The scorned woman in the play _committed suicide_ instead of acting more like a _scorned man_, which no one seems to want to talk about much. So, Shodan, cite? ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/522 "2010-10-25T01:07:55Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I agree that she was tone deaf, because the reaction was extremely predictable regardless of whether Hill was lying initially. Even if she truly was ready to apologize, it wouldn’t be based on a sanctimonious message of this sort. > > [FTR, I think - similar to the point someone else made earlier in this thread - Hill was probably lying in that she made up details that she had forgotten, and she likely exaggerated in the process, but Thomas probably did harrass her to some minor degree. This seems to account for all the evidence on both sides. FWIW, I also think he should have been confirmed despite the harrassment.] Why? Just because? Because every thing since then indicates you’re wrong. I’d be interested in knowing why you are willing to take complicated assumptions rather than the simple truth. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/523 "2010-10-25T01:13:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So here’s a thought experiment. > > As you may recall, Elizabeth Smart was kidnapped and spent more than half a year as the captive of a husband and wife team, raped repeatedly by the man and chained to a tree until they were confident they had tamed her. They did their job so well that even when the police rescued her, she denied she was Elizabeth until she saw her family. Her captor has thus far avoided trial with claims of incompetency. > > So imagine that one day in the far future, Mitchell has been tried, convicted, served time and released, all the while claiming he didn’t do it. > > And let’s imagine that Elizabeth calls him up one day and leaves a message that says, “Good morning, Brian Mitchell, it’s Elizabeth Smart. I just wanted to reach across the airwaves and the years and ask you to consider something. I would love you to consider an apology sometime and some full explanation of why you did what you did with me. So give it some thought and certainly pray about this and come to understand why you did what you did. Okay have a good day.” > > Who here would criticize that as tone deaf? > > (And please: in an effort to head off any idiocy, let’s not waste any time shrieking that I’m comparing rape to false accusations of sexual harrassment. This is an argument intended to flesh out the reason this is characterized as tone deaf. If a relevant difference is rape vs. false testimony, then explain why that is relevant.) OFFS. Gee, Bricker, I’m _sure_ it has nothing to do with sexism or anything like that that you choose a hypothetical in this thread that damns a woman as a lying bitch and _then_ you pick a case where the victim is a rape victim. You are in fact comparing a genuine rape victim to Virginia Thomas, a woman whose husband serially harassed women while he was in charge of the very organization that was designed to fight and punish sexual harassment. Where does a harassment victim go when her boss is the one to whom she’s supposed to _report_ sexual harassment? The _Supreme Court_, mayb—Oh, wait. Or the President—who nominated him. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/524 "2010-10-25T01:14:28Z")
Seraglio: “But, prithee, how view you yon spinster legalistic, the barren Hill?” Brocko: “A touch from Psycho, I warrant, and no better than she should be, forsooth” _Much Adeiu About Nothing_, Wm. Shakespeare (attrib.) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/525 "2010-10-25T01:16:30Z")
Wow, the stupid burns. If the OP says that a particular characterization can be safely made no matter whether you assume Hill was lying or telling the truth, why are you furious at my testing that statement by assuming Hill was lying? ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/526 "2010-10-25T01:24:03Z")
I do love the way Bricker holds forth as if he is the most august and impartial person ever, yet his hypotheticals contain certain beliefs built in, and he never takes the other side, as such a person would do, if in fact he were fair and neutral and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/527 "2010-10-25T01:31:57Z")
> [@margin](#): > > I do love the way Bricker holds forth as if he is the most august and impartial person ever, yet his hypotheticals contain certain beliefs built in, and he never takes the other side, as such a person would do, if in fact he were fair and neutral and all that. Read the thread, dolt. There are several times in which I pose the opposite hypothetical or acknowledge when someone else does that it changes things dramatically. But the OP said, “… regardless of politics or one’s personal beliefs about that past event…” How should we treat that line, in your view? ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/528 "2010-10-25T01:54:39Z")
Bricker, stop being such a coward. A vague disclaimer does not make you what you claim to be or do. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/529 "2010-10-25T02:55:39Z")
> [@margin](#): > > I do love the way Bricker holds forth as if he is the most august and impartial person ever, yet his hypotheticals contain certain beliefs built in, and he never takes the other side, as such a person would do, if in fact he were fair and neutral and all that. He bears no resemblance to fair, neutral, or impartial, but the hypothetical makes sense as a hypothetical. I think it demonstrates the opposite point from what he wanted it to demonstrate, but your complaint is off base in this instance. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/530 "2010-10-25T03:09:11Z")
What if, hypothetically, Hillary Clinton called up Monica Lewinsky and hinted that an apology was in order? Assume further that there was no physical evidence of Lewinsky’s various claims (if it can be waved away in the Smart case, I see no reason to do otherwise). _There’s_ your test of impartiality, assuming you dislike Thomas for being a conservative and like Clinton for not being one, however one defines “conservative”. The truth of the allegations doesn’t really matter; the hypothetical is to see if one will treat a noted political conservative differently from a noted political liberal out of personal bias. Surely this is a more on-point hypothetical than the Smart case, or if it isn’t, I eagerly wait for someone to explain why not. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/531 "2010-10-25T03:16:11Z")
Maybe Kathleen Willey or… um… that other woman would be even more fitting. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/532 "2010-10-25T03:22:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Read the thread, dolt. There are several times in which I pose the opposite hypothetical or acknowledge when someone else does that it changes things dramatically. > > But the OP said, “… regardless of politics or one’s personal beliefs about that past event…” > > How should we treat that line, in your view? Do my or your personal beliefs alter what Ms Hill believes? No. Has Ms Hill given any indication that she does not believe her own testimony? No. Unless Ms Thomas answers yes to the second question, then she is not behaving rationally unless it is a tactical maneuver with some other goal in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/533 "2010-10-25T03:42:17Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Maybe Kathleen Willey or… um… that other woman would be even more fitting. Paula Jones? Sure, why not? The point being to pick out a prominent liberal (presumably as far from Thomas’s politics as feasible) who had a woman accusing him of sexual impropriety and general skeevitude. Is Mrs. Thomas more deserving of an apology than Mrs. Clinton? Less? Is Mrs. Thomas’ request more reasonable (or less “tone deaf” or whatever) than the hypothetical equivalent from Mrs. Clinton? Less? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/534 "2010-10-25T03:48:16Z")
Why would Hill lie? did she make money off of it? Did she improve her position? Actually she is a law professor at a small college. She did not attempt to sell her testimony. She did not go on TV shows touting a new book. She did not use her new found fame for any gain. She did not go on speaking junkets for money. She did not crank out a book for quick profit. What she did do was act like a person who did her duty would act. She acted like a person who just told the truth because she knew Thomas was a pig and was lying . She quietly and calmly went back to her life staying out of the limelight. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/535 "2010-10-25T05:14:27Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Paula Jones? Sure, why not? The point being to pick out a prominent liberal (presumably as far from Thomas’s politics as feasible) who had a woman accusing him of sexual impropriety and general skeevitude. Is Mrs. Thomas more deserving of an apology than Mrs. Clinton? Less? Is Mrs. Thomas’ request more reasonable (or less “tone deaf” or whatever) than the hypothetical equivalent from Mrs. Clinton? Less? I think my reaction would be exactly the same: eye-rolling disbelief that someone was that arrogant and tone-deaf coupled with eye-rolling disbelief that someone just hasn’t gotten the fuck over it already. I do think Hillary Clinton provides a good counter to Virginia Thomas. Good call. ---
**Author:** ![pohjonen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pohjonen/32/423_2.png) [@pohjonen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pohjonen)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/536 "2010-10-25T05:24:22Z")
Personally, I think Ms. Thomas believed every word and wanted to be talked out of it. “Anita Hill, this is Ginni Thomas, and I just wanted to reach across the airwaves and the years and ask you to consider something. I would love you to consider an apology sometime and some full explanation of why you did what you did _with_ my husband.” Her use of the word _with_ instead of _to_ implies she feels something mutual went on, at least on a subconscious level. Anyone else find that choice of words to be an interesting Freudian slip? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/537 "2010-10-25T06:42:57Z")
Oh, heck, that’s not a Freudian slip! I called home, my Mom answers and I’m gonna say “Hi, Mom, is Dad there?” But instead I say “You still got the shattered remains of my father there, you ball busting bitch!?!” Now that’s a fuckin’ Freudian slip! ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/538 "2010-10-25T07:55:49Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Why would Hill lie? did she make money off of it? Did she improve her position? … She acted like a person who just told the truth because she knew Thomas was a pig and was lying . So you use “Bayesian based” analysis, also! I guess that makes your opinion BS just like mine. I’ve listened to otherwise-intelligent engineers think that the odds for any binary choice are 50-50. The right-wingers(\*) defending Thomas seem to fall into that fallacy, refusing to actually (gasp!) assess the probabilities of motives, etc. Or ask why a normal person would suddenly transmogrify into a motiveless psychopathic perjurer for a week, then go back to being normal! (\* - Not that they’re “otherwise-intelligent” ! 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/539 "2010-10-25T12:51:51Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Paula Jones? Sure, why not? The point being to pick out a prominent liberal (presumably as far from Thomas’s politics as feasible) who had a woman accusing him of sexual impropriety and general skeevitude. Is Mrs. Thomas more deserving of an apology than Mrs. Clinton? Less? Is Mrs. Thomas’ request more reasonable (or less “tone deaf” or whatever) than the hypothetical equivalent from Mrs. Clinton? Less? This is a good example. (Not Lewinsky, because we have physical evidence that corroborates her story, but Jones or Willey are excellent examples. So, let’s assume that Hillary Clinton is revealed to have called up Paula Jones and said, in effect, “You should apologize for the lies you told about my husband.” And let’s assume that someone here posted a thread that said, “Wow – regardless of your politics or how you feel personally about which way those events actually happened, that was pretty tone deaf of Ms. Clinton.” I don’t think there would be universal agreement. People would assume, as they should, that Jones deliberately lied and that Clinton knew Jones deliberately lied. Why is it tone deaf to request an apology from someone whose deliberate lie caused your husband to make history as the second-ever impeached president? It’s outrageous. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/540 "2010-10-25T13:27:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This is a good example. (Not Lewinsky, because we have physical evidence that corroborates her story, but Jones or Willey are excellent examples. So, let’s assume that Hillary Clinton is revealed to have called up Paula Jones and said, in effect, “You should apologize for the lies you told about my husband.” And let’s assume that someone here posted a thread that said, “Wow – regardless of your politics or how you feel personally about which way those events actually happened, that was pretty tone deaf of Ms. Clinton.” > > I don’t think there would be universal agreement. People would assume, as they should, that Jones deliberately lied and that Clinton knew Jones deliberately lied. Why is it tone deaf to request an apology from someone whose deliberate lie caused your husband to make history as the second-ever impeached president? It’s outrageous. Because it revives the issue in the public consciousness and makes you look like a petty grudge-holder. Even if you’re clearly in the right, it’s a bad idea to start people talking about it again. Personally I think Ginny Thomas ought to _thank_ Anita Hill - while everyone was talking about hairy Coke cans, nobody was looking at Clarence Thomas’ relatively weak jurisprudence credentials. Never mind Anita Hill bringing charges; I kept hoping for the corpse of Thurgood Marshall to shamble into the proceedings, point his decaying finger at the Senate panel and shout “J’accuse!”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798.md?page=28)