# SCOTUS Wife Virginia Thomas asks Anita Hill to apologize - WTF? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 20, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798 "2010-10-20T16:56:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 39
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/761 "2010-10-28T19:08:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > In other words, a quote by Armstrong Williams alone. Actually, it’s worse than that. That would be an allegation by Armstrong Williams that Anita Hill said it. This is, in fact, an allegation by David Brock that Amrstrong Williams alleged that Anita Hill said it. Which is not just in a different zip code to **Shodan** ’s Anita Hill said it, it’s on a different fucking continent. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/762 "2010-10-28T19:09:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The fact that you think less of me is not that much of a drawback - just the opposite, in fact. I know. Which goes further to prove how useless your existence is, because all of the worthwhile people on this forum like me quite a bit. > [@](#): > > Shouldn’t you be calling me a homophobe, and complete the racist/sexist/homophobe trifecta? As soon as you’d like to give me some evidence for it in this thread. > [@](#): > > cranio-rectal inversion. olololo wut do them big wurds mean? ur funny ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ > [@villa](#): > > That’s staggeringly dishonest, and a breach of every possible convention of debating and/or citation. What a shock. I am completely stunned and taken aback. Oh **Shodan**. How could you do this to us. We trusted you to debate honestly. And give legitimate cites for sources. Oh my. The horror. The horror. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/763 "2010-10-28T19:51:57Z")
Gini Thomas is tone deaf for sure. I also think Anita Hill’s testimony was factual. I still feel there is an issue with Ms. Hill: She failed to report Thomas’ conduct when it happened. She didn’t report it because either reporting would have had adverse consequences for her career, or tolerating it would have proverse consequences for her career. Either way, she decided that her career was more important to her than trying to put an end to Thomas’ harassment of herself and other women. She didn’t write the terms, but she accepted the deal. This is not blaming the victim. This is why you don’t negotiate with terrorists. Sucks to be the hostage that gets decapitated, but it makes the taking hostages less likely and saves lives in the long view. It takes more than just boys to sustain a “good ol’ boys” system. It takes clients, bosses, and support staff willing to tolerate it. If you aren’t willing to stand up for what’s right, don’t bitch that things aren’t right. Point 2 is that laws and customs were changing rapidly in regards this sort of conduct between the time it happened and the time Hill testified, and even more so to reach today. The goalposts had/have been moved a fair bit in the interim. Hill herself clearly didn’t think it was worth losing her job/career over at the time, yet a few years later, it was worth trying to derail Thomas’ career, and exposing herself to adverse publicity. By today’s standards, Thomas’ conduct is inexcusable. A few years before it happened, it would have just been “boys being boys.” When it happened, it was somewhere between, and while Thomas was running a bit behind the times it probably could have been dealt with via a reprimand. In the mid-80’s I saw a couple co-workers disciplined for racist comments, and while their thinking probably remained unchanged, the conduct at work stopped immediately and permanently. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/764 "2010-10-28T20:10:56Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > This is not blaming the victim. […] If you aren’t willing to stand up for what’s right, don’t bitch that things aren’t right. “One of these things is not like the other…” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/765 "2010-10-28T20:26:37Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That doesn’t answer my question. Actually, yes, it does. Hill claimed to be worried about her job (during the hearings. Several other people mentioned that she said she wanted to follow Clarence Thomas.) But, as was explained to her, she had nothing to worry about. > [@](#): > > Would it be fair to say it might not be work she finds interesting or good for her career? Might be. But she made no mention of this, if it was a concern. > [@](#): > > I assume you can read, which is why I don’t understand why my quoting of his 1982 SOTU address including a line specifically mentioning cutting the Department of Education is being ignored. I didn’t ignore it. As I mentioned, your quote is from 1982, and references the 1983 budget. The Department of Education was not eliminated in 1983, nor in any year subsequently. Anita Hill was a Schedule A attorney. So Hill had nothing to worry about. > [@](#): > > That is by no means clear. One attorney at the firm (Burke) described her being asked to leave, and another attorney (Donald Greene) quickly stepped in and disputed this, describing how they had no records Burke and Hill had worked together, but Burke had worked with a different black woman who was asked to leave (PDF cite, for the second time). If your argument relies on the premise that Hill’s work record was spotty, be advised that the solidity of this premise is in question. The interesting thing about this is that Hoerchner, who originally was brought in to back up Hill’s allegations, said that Hill was unhappy about her job, and had complained of sexual harassment at work, and that the conversation happened in the spring of 1981 - during the period when Hill was working for Wald, Harkrader & Ross. Hoerchner then changed her story to say that Hill had mentioned this in September of 1981, and that this was the reason that Hill left the EEOC. Hill did not work for the EEOC until May 1982, and did not work for Clarence Thomas in the spring of 1981. Hoerchner had a number of other credibility issues - she complained after the hearings were over that the panel had often addressed Hill as "Anita’, when actually all members consistently addressed her as Professor Hill, or Ms. Hill. > [@villa](#): > > That’s staggeringly dishonest, and a breach of every possible convention of debating and/or citation. Like I said, if you prefer your tantrum. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/766 "2010-10-28T20:37:48Z")
ITT, \*\*Shodan \*\*demonstrates again that he is a disgusting piece of trash not fit to be shat on. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/767 "2010-10-28T20:38:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Like I said, if you prefer your tantrum. That’s not a tantrum. It’s sadness. I tried to look for the best in this, but you have lied, and lied about your lies when called on them. You say you withdrew the statement and apologized? Where? You have continued to act as if it is a quote of Hill’s. This is not a tantrum. It’s a sad recognition that other people are right about you, that you are more than just incorrect, you are wilfully dishonest, and incapable of engaging in any kind of worthwhile discussion. You’ve shown yourself to be nothing more than a base liar. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/768 "2010-10-28T20:40:30Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > ITT, \*\*Shodan \*\*demonstrates again that he is a disgusting piece of trash not fit to be shat on. That’s a little harsh, isn’t it? I’d shit on him. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/769 "2010-10-28T20:56:02Z")
Here, Triumph! Here, boy! Good boy, now run over there and poop on **Shodan**. Triumph? Triumph, hey come back here! Where you going? … ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/770 "2010-10-28T21:47:22Z")
For all you people who wish to trash Thomas, and yes I can understand why because of his politics you are simply taking the word of one person against the other. No evidence, simply allegations. When someone makes an allegation, I expect they would have the decency to provide evidence. There is no evidence. If there was a problem for Anita, I would expect that she would have gotten her ducks in a row. He says she says is not enough to determine the truth. Anita started the controversy. As such, I’ll side with the accused until such time her allegations are proven. That is not to say she’s incorrect. But I believe in innocence until proven guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/771 "2010-10-28T21:48:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually, yes, it does. Actually, no, it does not. The President of the United States, speaking before Congress and the entire nation, said he wanted to ax her department. We can look back now from the safety of 2010 and know he didn’t succeed, but Hill in 1982-3 would have no way of knowing this. Please don’t claim hindsight as evidence. > [@](#): > > The interesting thing about this is… What you wrote after this has nothing to do with my original “this”. Are you drawing your observations about Hoerchner from Brock? I must ask you to specify the sources of your information from now on, to be sure they are not from Brock. In any event, why would complaining (if that’s what it was, and not just noting or observing) that Hill was addressed as “Anita” pose a credibility problem for anyone? In a formal setting like a Senate hearing, I’d think it a touch disrespectful to address someone by their first name unless they invited me to. Did Hill do so? If not, a Senator who called her “Anita” was being just a touch inappropriate and, arguably, condescending. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/772 "2010-10-28T22:01:05Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > For all you people who wish to trash Thomas, and yes I can understand why because of his politics you are simply taking the word of one person against the other. No evidence, simply allegations. > > When someone makes an allegation, I expect they would have the decency to provide evidence. There is no evidence. If there was a problem for Anita, I would expect that she would have gotten her ducks in a row. He says she says is not enough to determine the truth. > > Anita started the controversy. As such, I’ll side with the accused until such time her allegations are proven. > > That is not to say she’s incorrect. But I believe in innocence until proven guilty. Apart from the complete inaccuracy here, I think it is telling you refer to ‘Thomas’ and ‘Anita.’ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/773 "2010-10-28T22:09:15Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Apart from the complete inaccuracy here, I think it is telling you refer to ‘Thomas’ and ‘Anita.’ You got me. Truth is, there is no way I could see myself intimate in a platonic way with Thomas, but that does not hold true for Hill. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/774 "2010-10-28T22:16:22Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > For all you people who wish to trash Thomas, and yes I can understand why because of his politics you are simply taking the word of one person against the other. No evidence, simply allegations. Some of us find Hill’s testimony plausible regardless of Thomas’s politics. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/775 "2010-10-28T22:16:27Z")
[http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war\_room/2010/10/27/anita\_hill\_clarence\_thomas/index.html](http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/10/27/anita_hill_clarence_thomas/index.html) Here is a slate article decaring the truth is on Anita Hills side. It includes 3 friends of Hills who say that back in 80-83 Hill had told them about Thomas’s advances toward her and what he did. She told them that Thomas said"you would have a perfect case against me ,if you had witnesses’. Angela Wright, Director of affairs at EEOC, wrote a column describing Thomas’s inappropriate behavior toward her. In a letter to the Judicial Committee, Thomas’s former aide wrote that many black women at the agency felt they were being audited and inspected as females . Women generally know when they are being seen in a sexual light. The store that rented Thomas the porn movies is covered too. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/776 "2010-10-28T22:48:40Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Or you’re being a bit crazypants. Or you’re just an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/777 "2010-10-28T22:51:25Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And the porn would be lies! And you’d be objectifying margin! > > It’d be an attempt to socially margin-lies him! Her? Whatever! > > Seriously, margin, chill the fuck out. You really don’t get it, do you? And being a guy, you think what Bricker’s doing is just LOLworthy. In a topic about sexual harassment, one of the guys who’s arguing that the victim was lying and using various sexist terms, tells a woman he’s going to write a little scene----because she won’t agree with him—in which she’s sexually degraded against her will. With a dog. LOL HAR HAR HAR you so funny, baby. Because that’s the way you win an argument about sexual harassment, by sexualizing one of your opponents. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/778 "2010-10-28T22:55:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes. Yes, I did. I… I threatened to pornify you. > > I’m so ashamed. > > Or, possibly, amused. You’re an asshole. So is everyone else who thinks it’s amusing. I’ve noticed that any mention of sexism on this board—unless it’s against the usual, outside targets----is greeted with the usual male whoops of “Lol you crazy bitch.” That’s you and all the others who think it’s amusing. It’s a perfect example of just how far the SDMB hasn’t come. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/779 "2010-10-28T23:00:00Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > No, not exactly. There \*is \*a certain subset of interpersonal interaction that can either be harassment or not, depending on the relationship between the two people involved. However, it does \*not \*follow that therefore \*any \*interaction between two people is also subject to this same subjective classification. For example, someone emailing you to ask you to order more paper cannot be classified by any reasonable person as sexual harassment. You only get to decide about the things in the gray area. > > . Because of course, somebody would mistake the phrase, “I’d like to order more paper” as sexual harassment. That’s bad faith argument right there. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/780 "2010-10-28T23:04:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It was a quote, of something Armstrong Williams alleged Anita Hill said. > That is the same thing as saying it is identical in sense and meaning. > Well, not necessarily as a partisan attack, but I don’t see this as some huge gotcha. YMMV, but… > > Regards, > Shodan **She did not say it.** What part of that do you not get? **She did not say it.** You claimed she did. Instead, you lied about attribution and source, concealing that it came from a Thomas defender who had every reason to lie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798.md?page=38) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798.md?page=40)