# SCOTUS Wife Virginia Thomas asks Anita Hill to apologize - WTF? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 20, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798 "2010-10-20T16:56:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/121 "2010-10-20T19:38:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m sorry, but you - not I - were the one that sought to paint her conduct as so unreasonable that “…regardless of politics **or one’s personal beliefs about that past event** …” we should agree that Virginia Thomas was tone deaf. **Case A:** “I am extending an olive branch to you by asking you to repudiate the true and honest statements you made twenty years ago.” **Case B:** “I am extending an olive branch to you by asking you to repudiate the sincere but mistaken assertions you made twenty years ago.” **Case C:** “I am extending an olive branch to you by asking you to fess up to the pack of lies you told twenty years ago.” That covers the gamut of possibilities, and in each case the tone-deafness of describing the situation as the extension of an olive branch is plain on the face of it. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/122 "2010-10-20T19:39:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I guess I’m left with the sense simply that a naive message is not fairly described as “tone deaf” for reasons that I can’t yet articulate. Okay - let’s go with “stupid” 😉 Nah, sorry - still tone deaf; your attempt to couch this in a basket of good intentions doesn’t change the basic tone deafness of it… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/123 "2010-10-20T19:40:43Z")
> [@emmaliminal](#): > > It’s not impossible that she might imagine that, but it would also be tone deaf. > > Can you at least give us a nice broad floodlight-like hint what you think it means? I generally adopt your definition: unable to predict that this will sound bad to your intended audience, and therefore have the opposite result to what was apparently intended. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/124 "2010-10-20T19:41:54Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > **Case A:** “I am extending an olive branch to you by asking you to repudiate the true and honest statements you made twenty years ago.” > > **Case B:** “I am extending an olive branch to you by asking you to repudiate the sincere but mistaken assertions you made twenty years ago.” > > **Case C:** “I am extending an olive branch to you by asking you to fess up to the pack of lies you told twenty years ago.” > > That covers the gamut of possibilities, and in each case the tone-deafness of describing the situation as the extension of an olive branch is plain on the face of it. Er… yes. A point I have already conceded. But I’ll happily concede it again. The message cannot be fairly described as an olive branch. i was wrong on that point. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/125 "2010-10-20T19:42:17Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > If if if if if if … > > The only reason to assume that Anita Hill’s testimony was “made them up out of whole cloth, in an effort to derail Thomas’ nomination, without caring what effect her lies might have on Thomas personally, or on Thomas’ family,” is because you want to believe it. Well, that, plus [ul][li]Hill’s testimony conflicted in several places with the known facts, including a time line that made it impossible for Thomas to have committed the acts of which she accused him.[/li][li]A complete lack of any corroboration of sexual harassment by Thomas of Anita Hill or any one else[/li][li]the fact that every other person who ever worked with Thomas, from the beginning of his career to the present, believed Thomas and not Hill[/li][li]the fact that Anita Hill’s behavior was much more characteristic of a woman scorned than of the victim of a harasser[/li][li]that Hill had opportunities to avoid the behavior she alleged was so unwelcome by doing nothing. Instead, she chose to follow her alleged harasser from job to job and maintained contact.[/li][li]that Anita Hill had made other, unsubstantiated charges of sexual harassment previously[/li][li]that Anita Hill attempted to make her accusation anonymously, so as to avoid the consequences of false accusation[/li][li]that, far from courageously speaking the truth to power, she was forced into public testimony by Nina Totenberg - another woman who lied about being sexually harassed to cover up her (Totenberg’s) failure - in Totenberg’s case, an ethical failure (plagiarism) - and/or by Sen. Paul Simon or one of his staffers, who committed a felony in doing so.[/li][/ul]Although at this late date, it is probably too much to expect that Hill would come clean about her false testimony. Her whole career is based on not doing so. So it is not much of an olive branch. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/126 "2010-10-20T19:42:22Z")
Does anyone know if Thomas left her phone number? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/127 "2010-10-20T19:43:02Z")
> [@emmaliminal](#): > > If it were_only_ naive, I don’t think it would be so fairly described – but it’s beyond naive to think that particular message, as worded, could EVER be received in a way that would have an effect Ms. Thomas might like. Really? If she knew she had lied, it’s not possible to imagine her hearing that message and deciding to come clean? ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/128 "2010-10-20T19:43:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, that, plus > [ul][li]Hill’s testimony conflicted in several places with the known facts, including a time line that made it impossible for Thomas to have committed the acts of which she accused him.[/li][li]A complete lack of any corroboration of sexual harassment by Thomas of Anita Hill or any one else[/li][li]the fact that every other person who ever worked with Thomas, from the beginning of his career to the present, believed Thomas and not Hill[/li][li]the fact that Anita Hill’s behavior was much more characteristic of a woman scorned than of the victim of a harasser[/li][li]that Hill had opportunities to avoid the behavior she alleged was so unwelcome by doing nothing. Instead, she chose to follow her alleged harasser from job to job and maintained contact.[/li][li]that Anita Hill had made other, unsubstantiated charges of sexual harassment previously[/li][li]that Anita Hill attempted to make her accusation anonymously, so as to avoid the consequences of false accusation[/li][li]that, far from courageously speaking the truth to power, she was forced into public testimony by Nina Totenberg - another woman who lied about being sexually harassed to cover up her (Totenberg’s) failure - in Totenberg’s case, an ethical failure (plagiarism) - and/or by Sen. Paul Simon or one of his staffers, who committed a felony in doing so.[/li][/ul]Although at this late date, it is probably too much to expect that Hill would come clean about her false testimony. Her whole career is based on not doing so. So it is not much of an olive branch. > > Regards, > Shodan Immaterial to the point being made in the OP, but thanks for playing. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/129 "2010-10-20T19:46:01Z")
It is material to the point that I quoted, which was > [@](#): > > The only reason to assume that Anita Hill’s testimony was “made them up out of whole cloth, in an effort to derail Thomas’ nomination, without caring what effect her lies might have on Thomas personally, or on Thomas’ family,” is because you want to believe it. Which is why I quoted it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/130 "2010-10-20T19:46:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Really? If she knew she had lied, it’s not possible to imagine her hearing that message and deciding to come clean? No, not really. “I now give you permission to apologize to me” is pretty much a hackle-raising statement in any context. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/131 "2010-10-20T19:47:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@SmartAleq](#): > > > > Again, because Ms Thomas has zero, nada, zip, zilch reason to assume (aside from her own personal prejudice in favor of her husband) that Ms Hill did any such thing, and therefore is putting out a shot in the dark which is extremely tone deaf. I mean, if my auntie had a dick she’d be my uncle, but if I’ve never seen her with her pants off I have no call to leave her a voice mail message demanding she admit that she’s got the dangler she’s always maintained she doesn’t have. My auntie would consider me to be rude at best and delusional at average if I were to do so, and she’d be absolutely right to think it. > > No, she wouldn’t. > > Because in fact she has the dick, in this hypothetical. Nope. It I randomly accuse someone of being the murderer of Jimmy Hoffa, the act is no less obnoxious if it later turns out that evidence (that I had no inkling of at the time of the accusation) surfaces that the person in question did in fact do that deed. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/132 "2010-10-20T19:51:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I wouldn’t call either of those “tone deaf.” I’d consider both to be rather stupid and tone deaf - and I actually am tone deaf. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/133 "2010-10-20T19:52:52Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > No, not really. > > “I now give you permission to apologize to me” is pretty much a hackle-raising statement in any context. I can only imagine that you have lived a very clean life, and thus never had a weighty matter on your conscience. I can’t think of another reason you’d completely discount the idea that her deception weighed heavily on her and this nudge would cause her to unburden herself. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/134 "2010-10-20T19:53:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, that, plus > [ul][li]Hill’s testimony conflicted in several places with the known facts, including a time line that made it impossible for Thomas to have committed the acts of which she accused him.[/li][li]A complete lack of any corroboration of sexual harassment by Thomas of Anita Hill or any one else[/li][li]the fact that every other person who ever worked with Thomas, from the beginning of his career to the present, believed Thomas and not Hill[/li][li]the fact that Anita Hill’s behavior was much more characteristic of a woman scorned than of the victim of a harasser[/li][li]that Hill had opportunities to avoid the behavior she alleged was so unwelcome by doing nothing. Instead, she chose to follow her alleged harasser from job to job and maintained contact.[/li][li]that Anita Hill had made other, unsubstantiated charges of sexual harassment previously[/li][li]that Anita Hill attempted to make her accusation anonymously, so as to avoid the consequences of false accusation[/li][li]that, far from courageously speaking the truth to power, she was forced into public testimony by Nina Totenberg - another woman who lied about being sexually harassed to cover up her (Totenberg’s) failure - in Totenberg’s case, an ethical failure (plagiarism) - and/or by Sen. Paul Simon or one of his staffers, who committed a felony in doing so.[/li][/ul]Although at this late date, it is probably too much to expect that Hill would come clean about her false testimony. Her whole career is based on not doing so. So it is not much of an olive branch. > > Regards, > Shodan All of these would be pertinent if they were true. But what is actually pertinent and true is that other women have said they were sexually harassed by Thomas in the same manner that Hill described. And Hill’s testimony was corroborated by other witnesses. It’s easy to see why women are reluctant to step forward and say they’ve been the victims of sexual harassment. Look at what happened to Hill. Twenty years later and the criminal is still free and Hill has somehow become the guilty person who’s supposed to apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/135 "2010-10-20T19:56:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > All of these would be pertinent if they were true. > > But what is actually pertinent and true is that other women have said they were sexually harassed by Thomas in the same manner that Hill described. And Hill’s testimony was corroborated by other witnesses. No other woman said she was sexually harassed by Thomas. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/136 "2010-10-20T19:56:24Z")
I’m pretty sure the Thomases asked Ms. Hill to apologize a couple years ago in an interview. Obviously she didn’t or Ms. Thomas wouldn’t be asking again. I vote Tone Deaf. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/137 "2010-10-20T19:57:23Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > I’m pretty sure the Thomases asked Ms. Hill to apologize a couple years ago in an interview. Obviously she didn’t or Ms. Thomas wouldn’t be asking again. I vote Tone Deaf. That would change my mind, if true. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/138 "2010-10-20T19:57:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It seems to me she’s only “tone deaf” if you begin the analysis by assuming Ms. Hill was telling the truth. Nope. You yourself have now conceded that the words cannot be considered an olive branch. So, when someone makes a statement that they believe (or claim to believe) is polite, friendly, and conducive to mending bridges, which instead is rude, condescending, and insulting, it’s safe to say that that person is (a) engaging in disingenuous shit-stirring or (b) tone deaf as hell, i.e., completely unable to predict how anyone who is not themself will interpret their words. > [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I can’t come up with any other explanation that makes sense. Tea party tardation. > [@Bricker](#): > > Would that change your calculation that Thomas’ call was tone deaf? What if Anita Hill had raped Clarence Thomas with a strap-on in front of a live studio audience while it was broadcast into millions of more homes, and then we’d all just decided not to talk about it? :rolleyes: If such evidence existed, _it would have accompanied the voicemail_. Since it did not, we can clearly see that Tone Deaf Bitch has \*exactly the same evidence \*available to her as the rest of us do, and thus, no more or less reason to believe that Hill was lying, other than that she has a personal investment in her hubby not being a douche. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/139 "2010-10-20T19:58:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I can only imagine that you have lived a very clean life, and thus never had a weighty matter on your conscience. I can’t think of another reason you’d completely discount the idea that her deception weighed heavily on her and this nudge would cause her to unburden herself. Well, that’s basically true. I never have had a weighty matter on my conscience as you say (and hope to keep it that way). However, it seems to me, that if I did, I would apologize for my own reasons, and not because someone oh-so-graciously gave me permission. It seems to me, that many people inclined to apologize in those circumstances, might actually change their mind after receiving such a dismissive missive (heh). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798/140 "2010-10-20T19:58:47Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > All of these would be pertinent if they were true. Then they are pertinent. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotus-wife-virginia-thomas-asks-anita-hill-to-apologize-wtf/557798.md?page=8)