# SCOTUS's decision on The Health Care Law 6/28/12 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499 "2012-06-27T19:56:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/361 "2012-06-28T23:01:44Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > It’s exactly what the esteemed Chief Justice said it is. A penalty that is functionally equivalent to a tax and thus is authorized under Congress’s authority to tax. Which, of course, is complete nonsense. (From him, not you.) So, we have a penalty for breathing that the IRS can collect like those other things they are empowered to collect. What’s that word again…? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/362 "2012-06-28T23:22:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Which, of course, is complete nonsense. But it is consistent with the constitution. _\_ Well, you can say what you want about us, but we’re not going to sit here and listen to you bad mouth…the the Constitution of the United States of America. Gentlemen!" ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/363 "2012-06-28T23:35:40Z")
I will be very interested to see if the poll numbers change on the ACA during the next cylce of polling once this sinks in. ---
**Author:** ![phxjcc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8491ac/32.png) [@phxjcc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phxjcc)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/364 "2012-06-28T23:56:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can you expand on this theory, please? I’d like some specifics about under what precise circumstance benefits were paid and under what theory of liability the government is responsible. Sorry…as Mr. Tribeck would say: I should have put this in the form of a question. 1. A law is passed by _GOVT_ demanding specific performance from _Party A_. 2. In compliance with this law, _Party A_ incurs costs (IOW a net loss). 3. Law is declared unconstitutional, _ab initio_. 4. Is _Party A_ not entitled to relief from _GOVT_ to recover the net loss? And if no relief is possible–does that mean that _GOVT_ is generally indemnified from all laws that _GOVT_ makes that are later declared unconstitutional? REALLY? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/365 "2012-06-29T00:06:49Z")
First, it’s Trebek. Second, the government is immune from suit unless it waives its immunity. So, yes. That’s what it means. That’s why Congress had to authorize reparations to Japanese-Americans who were arbitrarily stuffed in concentration camps during WWII, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/366 "2012-06-29T00:07:59Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Which, of course, is complete nonsense. (From him, not you.) So, we have a penalty for breathing that the IRS can collect like those other things they are empowered to collect. What’s that word again…? You’re penalized for not having a home mortgage. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/367 "2012-06-29T00:16:49Z")
What are some of the major (realistic) pros and cons of ACA? Hard to cut through all the BS. Is there any (good) reason to be against it? Why has it taken so long to get put into effect? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/368 "2012-06-29T00:24:34Z")
We’ve had like a hundred thousand threads on the actual merits of the law. [Here’s one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=579591&highlight=ppaca). ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/369 "2012-06-29T00:32:20Z")
I already looked through that thread – too much BS to sift through. Looking for some hard points, here. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/370 "2012-06-29T00:34:38Z")
It’s a big law and I’m sure you can find a lot of the key provisions listed in any news story about the ruling today. A lot of the law has already gone into effect in the two-plus years since it was passed. A few others won’t go into effect until the start of 2014. It was designed to be phased in because it creates a lot of rules for insurance companies, for example, and it made sense to implement those over time. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/371 "2012-06-29T00:43:14Z")
But are there any serious reasons to oppose it? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/372 "2012-06-29T01:21:03Z")
I haven’t seen any mention of it here, but the wording of the dissent makes it appear that it was originally drafted as the majority opinion. If that’s true, then something made Roberts change his mind at the last second. Perhaps it was the specter of 4 justices being willing to scrap the entire legislation. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/373 "2012-06-29T01:38:33Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > But are there any serious reasons to oppose it? That’s a very vague question. You can see a lot of people opposed it (including four justices) on a variety of different grounds, and of course even a lot of people who supported the bill wish it were different either because they wanted it to do more or do it in a different way. I have to admit I am still processing what happened today, but I think I’m satisfied with how the court handled this. ---
**Author:** ![Jake\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Jake\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake_Jones)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/374 "2012-06-29T02:03:46Z")
Pardon my ignorance here, but since many of you are much more informed on this topic than I am, I was hoping someone could explain a few things. These are sincere questions. I don’t have a strong opinion for or against the individual mandate. These are not “gotcha” questions. First of all, what happens with the revenue generated by the fines/taxes collected from uninsured parties? Is there a specific method for injecting those funds into healthcare? Specifically such that those that are privately insured feel less of a burden from non-payment to private hospitals? Or does all that money collected by the IRS just wind up in the general fund? Secondly, a hypothetical. Let’s say I’m barely scraping by, underemployed at two part time jobs with no health insurance benefits, but with financial obligations that prohibit me from being able to afford an individual insurance plan, which are ungodly expensive. I’m barely above the income level necessary to qualify for Medicaid, but I just can’t afford an insurance plan. Now I have a minor accident that leaves me with a $2000 ER bill. Being the upstanding guy that I am, I work out a payment plan and agree to pay the hospital $100 a month for the next two years. Is that deductible against my annual fine for not having health insurance? For the record, I do have insurance, but I have gone for extended periods of time without. I currently have an HDHP through my employer. I just don’t use healthcare much and file simplified tax returns, so I haven’t been inclined to educate myself on this topic. The only difference I’ve noticed since ACA passed has been that my employer makes its contibution to my deductible allowance to an HSA now, where previously if I did not reach my plan deductible, my employer just didn’t contribute a percentage. That is, they contribute $1700 a year against a $2600 deductible. Previously, if I had no expenses, they contributed nothing. (They do pay for the plan itself, though.) Now I get the $1700 in an HSA whether I use it or not. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/375 "2012-06-29T02:06:38Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You’re penalized for not having a home mortgage. Please explain… ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/376 "2012-06-29T02:10:11Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Please explain… Because of the mortgage deduction. You pay more taxes if you don’t have a mortgage, right? So the government is \*forcing \*you to buy a house or pay additional taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/377 "2012-06-29T02:14:45Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Because of the mortgage deduction. You pay more taxes if you don’t have a mortgage, right? So the government is \*forcing \*you to buy a house or pay additional taxes. No, they don’t penalize you for not having a mortgage, they reward you for having one! It’s TOTALLY different! Pay me ten bucks. But if you dye your hair blue, you don’t have to pay me anything. Don’t you see how totally different that is from your having to pay me ten bucks if your hair isn’t blue? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/378 "2012-06-29T02:18:49Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No, they don’t penalize you for not having a mortgage, they reward you for having one! It’s TOTALLY different! > > Pay me ten bucks. But if you dye your hair blue, you don’t have to pay me anything. Don’t you see how totally different that is from your having to pay me ten bucks if your hair isn’t blue? This tax is highly regressive, because I can’t afford hair dye. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/379 "2012-06-29T02:25:00Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > This tax is highly regressive, because I can’t afford hair dye. ☹ When you dye, it doesn’t go to your hairs, and Republicans already oppose the death tax. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/380 "2012-06-29T02:30:35Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Because of the mortgage deduction. You pay more taxes if you don’t have a mortgage, right? So the government is \*forcing \*you to buy a house or pay additional taxes. Do nothing (don’t buy a house) you pay the _normal rate_. Buy a house and you get a _deduction_. Do nothing (don’t buy insurance) you pay a _penalty_. Buy a house and the penalty (tax?) doesn’t kick in. Obama could have structured it like the mortgage deduction, but he decided to NOT do that. He could have said, “Okay, everyone has to pay a $5,000 healthcare tax. But if you buy insurance or get it from your employer, you get a $5,000 deduction.” That would have clearly made it a tax, which he swore up and down it wasn’t. Do you really need another link to the Stephanopolous interview? He rejected the “notion completely.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499.md?page=20)