# SCOTUS's decision on The Health Care Law 6/28/12 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499 "2012-06-27T19:56:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/161 "2012-06-28T15:34:22Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > BTW\> Obama’s a flat out liar. Glad to see you didn’t even try to deny it. Obama: The mandate is not a tax - it is constitutional under the Commerce Clause 4 Justices: Agreed on both counts, but willing to call it a tax to keep it 4 Justices: Agreed that it’s not a tax, disagree thats it’s covered under Commerce 1 Justice: Disagree that it’s not a tax, disagree that it’s covered under Commerce Why does anybody have to be a liar here? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/162 "2012-06-28T15:35:56Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I have often made that charge. I’ll read the opinion and apologize if appropriate. I am stunned that Roberts was the swing vote in favor. I figured he’d jump on board if there were already five votes, but didn’t expect him to be the one to make it happen. There must be a partisan hack reason for his vote that I’m not seeing. 😉 I think Roberts has the best understanding, and places the most emphasis on how the court is viewed by the public. I think he understood how bad a 5-4 reversal of this would have played in the general public. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/163 "2012-06-28T15:36:23Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Some poor intern at CNN is probably put on the rack right now. Somewhere, in the depths of the Whitehouse, the guy they had argue for the mandate infront of the SCOTUS is finally being let off the rack he was put on after oral arguments. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/164 "2012-06-28T15:36:26Z")
> [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](#): > > Ok. Agreed elections would/could stop this, but when we have a large section of the nation consisting of ignorant constituents who just vote per party lines or single issues, and the vast majority of members of Congress are RE-elected cycle after cycle, would this really be stopped? > > In the end, a lot of the problems we have are not getting solved with the mess we have in Congress now. I joined the Dope so I could be informed, and (pat on the back to many members of this board) have had my ignorance fought, but let’s be honest here - do we really believe elections will stop this crap from happening? > > Lobbyists and Corporate PACs are flooding Washington for what they want, and in that light, it seems (to me) that a law like this _could_ be passed now, regardless of elections. So the example of a health care bill being passed despite the intense lobbying of PAC-backed conservative interests shows that the system doesn’t work? And what exactly is it you want stopped, the adoption of UHC which has been shown to work in every other industrialized country in the world? or is it just the threat of mandatory broccoli? ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/165 "2012-06-28T15:37:22Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > The nice thing is that the rest of us won’t have to pay such high premiums to carry your injured derriere. > > You’re welcome. So when did “This-is-good-because-I-don’t-want-to-pay-higher-\-for-myself” become an acceptable argument? I ask because this board is rife with lefties decrying that sentiment from righties who often times state they’re against something because they don’t want to pay higher \ (i.e., righties decry the government expanding entitlement programs because the burden of paying for those programs tend to fall more heavily on conservatives/Republicans). Or is this one of those cases where lefties get to use two different set of standards for the way they argue? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/166 "2012-06-28T15:37:39Z")
I like broccoli. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/167 "2012-06-28T15:38:27Z")
Gotta give Boehner credit for not spiking the ball when the decision came down. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/168 "2012-06-28T15:40:07Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > A freeloader? I beg to differ. If I get sick and go to the doctor, I pay the full fees. Now you know and you’re welcome. > > BTW\> Obama’s a flat out liar. Glad to see you didn’t even try to deny it. You should really get insurance. It’s a very very bad idea to not have it unless you’re Wolverine. You do know you’re made of meat, right? In any case, by not having insurance you’re shifting the cost of your care to the rest of us once you get ill. Because I’m not seeing you as a wealthy heiress. In any case, aside from this nonsense, I’d like to say that Roberts agrees with Justice Lobohan from two years ago: > [@Financing the Health Care Reform Plan](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/financing-the-health-care-reform-plan/533617/14): > > That’s literally the silliest thing I’ve read all day. > > Think of it this way. The government has increased taxes on everyone in the amount of the mandate penalty. > Anyone who has health insurance gets a tax credit equal to the mandate penalty. > > Does that quell the chicken-little-histrionics? ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/169 "2012-06-28T15:41:07Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Obama: The mandate is not a tax - it is constitutional under the Commerce Clause > 4 Justices: Agreed on both counts, but willing to call it a tax to keep it > 4 Justices: Agreed that it’s not a tax, disagree thats it’s covered under Commerce > 1 Justice: Disagree that it’s not a tax, disagree that it’s covered under Commerce > > Why does anybody have to be a liar here? Because Obama _ **is** _ the liar. The ACA doesn’t stand because of the commerce cause, but because it’s a tax, which Obama flatly said it wasn’t, even though it is. But you can keep grasping at straws there. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/170 "2012-06-28T15:42:07Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > So when did “This-is-good-because-I-don’t-want-to-pay-higher-\-for-myself” become an acceptable argument? I ask because this board is rife with lefties decrying that sentiment from righties who often times state they’re against something because they don’t want to pay higher \ (i.e., righties decry the government expanding entitlement programs because the burden of paying for those programs tend to fall more heavily on conservatives/Republicans). > > Or is this one of those cases where lefties get to use two different set of standards for the way they argue? Just like motorcycle helmet laws, I would be in support of an opt-out procedure. If you want to affirm that you will not get treatment that in any way increases my costs when the shit hits the fan, great! Unfortunately, it would require some pretty calloused people to make sure you didn’t drag your bleeding ass into the ER when you did need help and realized your conservative principles seemed a lot better when you were railing instead of ailing. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/171 "2012-06-28T15:42:18Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Because Obama _ **is** _ the liar. The ACA doesn’t stand because of the commerce cause, but because it’s a tax, which Obama flatly said it wasn’t, even though it is. But you can keep grasping at straws there. Are Thomas, Scalia, Alito, and Kennedy all liars too? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/172 "2012-06-28T15:43:06Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > I’m pretty disappointed in the outcome. I guess my taxes are going up, because I refuse to buy something I don’t want. I’m sure that the **Obamacare Tax** will be foremost in the minds of many voters in November. The Obamacare Tax = IRS agents becoming involved in your healthcare concerns. Woohoo. If that ain’t a campaign platform, I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/173 "2012-06-28T15:43:10Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Gotta give Boehner credit for not spiking the ball when the decision came down. 😛 Well done! ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/174 "2012-06-28T15:44:16Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Because Obama _ **is** _ the liar. The ACA doesn’t stand because of the commerce cause, but because it’s a tax, which Obama flatly said it wasn’t, even though it is. But you can keep grasping at straws there. You are having trouble understanding his argument. He’s saying that several justices agree with Obama. So obviously highly trained people can differ over this. That doesn’t make Obama a liar, and maybe you shouldn’t characterize him as such when it isn’t warranted. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/175 "2012-06-28T15:46:30Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > I wonder how soon we should expect calls for the impeachment of Roberts from Tea Party types. It didn’t take long. [The Freepers](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2900419/posts) are foaming at the mouths about it. > [@Excerpt from a foaming Freeper](#): > > The impeachment of the Gang of Five needs to become an election issue. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/176 "2012-06-28T15:47:11Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Are Thomas, Scalia, Alito, and Kennedy all liars too? Thomas, Scalia, Alito, and Kennedy weren’t telling the taxpaying voters that they wouldn’t raise taxes and that Obamacare was not a tax. Obama did just that. Do you think the Obamacare “Tax” will have an effect on the upcoming elections? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/177 "2012-06-28T15:47:37Z")
I’ve started a dedicated [special thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=656772) for all this talk of lying hypocritical liars, etc, to provide an outlet. Go ahead, it feels good to thunder about someone else’s intellectual inconsistency. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/178 "2012-06-28T15:49:10Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > A freeloader? I beg to differ. If I get sick and go to the doctor, I pay the full fees. Now you know and you’re welcome. > > BTW\> Obama’s a flat out liar. Glad to see you didn’t even try to deny it. What if you were to get hit by a car tomorrow, end up disabled for life (and totally unable to work anymore), and incur a 100,000 medical bill in the ICU? What if you get diagnosed with cancer out of the blue? This is why everyone NEEDS health insurance. Because you can’t predict the unexpected on an individual level. We can only predict health care needs on a large scale, using statistical evidence to calculate likely expenditures over a long time for a very large pool of people. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/179 "2012-06-28T15:49:31Z")
Question. If the law is implemented, can it still be challenged on con law grounds as it’s applied to a specific individual? Say for instance, someone who had a religious belief against medical care, and chose, on those grounds, not to participate by refusing to obtain the coverage or pay the “tax” (fine). ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499/180 "2012-06-28T15:50:04Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I’m sure that the **Obamacare Tax** will be foremost in the minds of many voters in November. > > The Obamacare Tax = IRS agents becoming involved in your healthcare concerns. Woohoo. If that ain’t a campaign platform, I don’t know what is. Don’t forget to make them armed. And wearing jackboots. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scotuss-decision-on-the-health-care-law-6-28-12/626499.md?page=10)