# Screamers Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 21, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938 "2009-09-21T13:16:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938/301 "2009-09-26T12:56:17Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > That’s why I said “all else being equal, which of course it won’t be.” > > We don’t KNOW that there are third parties, although the mods have been very coy about kinda-sorta not answering our queries about that. but **tom** you are making my point. let me parse those two sentences in reverse order. _We dont’ KNOW that there are third parties…_ true enough. maybe so maybe no. _"…all else being equal, **which of course it won’t be.** _ this infers, in your words, that it’s not just straight up town v scum (how you calcuated the potential mislynches). how do you know that? ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938/302 "2009-09-26T13:00:40Z")
and fuck. missed the close quote and didn’t add the \ to the second portion of **tom** ’s quote. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938/303 "2009-09-26T13:20:36Z")
Alka Seltzer (1): Boozy Squid jpei (2): Normal Phase, OaOW ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938/304 "2009-09-26T13:28:03Z")
I’m willing to write **jpei** off as just being new for now, although the justification for the behavior is somewhat flimsy. I see it being more the actions of a n00b and less of scum, at least for now. I do, however, think s/he may deserve additional scrutiny because of it, just in case. Basically, I see it as worth a FOS but not quite a vote yet. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938/305 "2009-09-26T14:07:11Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > **@Boozy** - Do you consider my other ideas this game to be anti-town? Do you think the leader role and voting mechanism helps town or scum? No, not really. It was just the first anti-town idea that popped out to me. Don’t take it personally, I’m strongly considering peeker’s questions about Scuddy right now and may make a switch. The **jpei** case isn’t very strong right now. I’m of the opinion that the leader role/mechanism is going to turn out to be an anti-town mechanism. Best case scenario, we’ll have a townie in place, and the day will go normally, with some more specific player control over the end-time of the days. That’s something that benefits us as players equally, town and scum alike: it’ll speed the game up when necessary, and let us take a little more time when called for. On the other hand, the leader position obviously can be helpful to scum if they have a player in the leader role. If there isn’t a specific time declared to be the end of the day, a scum leader could cut the day off a little short, or extend the day to give more time for discussion, should there be a close vote between one of their scummates and a townie. It might raise the heat on them a little bit after a mislynch, and even more after their scummate was found-out, but mislynches and delay are the keys to the game for scum. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938/306 "2009-09-26T15:42:47Z")
> [@jpei](#): > > I know neither Tom Scud nor AllWalker, so I opted not to vote. There’s still something “evilish” about these roles, and, roleplaying here, voting for a Leader implies an element of trust which I do not agree with. > > A character’s role which would not fit in as a possible leader could be a Convict (Vigilante), child (Watcher or other investigative role), or Social Outcast (?). I don’t think roleclaiming here would be of particular use. > > And I would prefer a Tuesday vote to a Thursday vote, FWIW. On preview: or Friday, just not a Thursday. I think not voting for a leader for such a reason is kind of lame. I mean, you could have proposed any one else (other than One and Only) or even yourself. Scum tries to discourage us from talking, from figuring out ways to win the game, etc. **Vote jpei** ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938/307 "2009-09-26T15:44:11Z")
NETA: I get that it could just be a noob. But it also reeks of “I just don’t care enough” which is also pretty fucking anti Town in my book. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938/308 "2009-09-26T15:57:35Z")
> [@jpei](#): > > I know neither Tom Scud nor AllWalker, so I opted not to vote. I’m in agreement with the others. This is incredibly lame. Even if you don’t know them by previous playing experience, you could come up with some other criteria to use (eg the previously discussed time zone issues). > [@jpei](#): > > …voting for a Leader implies an element of trust which I do not agree with. By this logic none of us should have voted because I don’t trust anyone here. Even though I’ve played with most of the other people in this game at some point or another, they’re all equally likely to be scum in THIS game. I’m not convinced though that your play has a scum motivation, but it is certainly anti-town. I’ll be watching you closely. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938/309 "2009-09-26T16:00:33Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > NETA: I get that it could just be a noob. But it also reeks of “I just don’t care enough” which is also pretty fucking anti Town in my book. I definitely don’t see his play as ‘I just don’t care enough’. He seems like a thoughtful player who is playing very cautiously. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938/310 "2009-09-26T16:01:36Z")
> [@USCDiver](#): > > I definitely don’t see his play as ‘I just don’t care enough’. He seems like a thoughtful player who is playing very cautiously. But not voting for anyone? I mean, we have to vote for someone. What if everyone just didn’t vote? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938/311 "2009-09-26T16:03:40Z")
NETA: I’m more than willing to unvote if someone better comes along or if you guys think lynching him is an utterly terrible idea. I just hate inaction as a rule because if we all did it we’d have sheer silence. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938/312 "2009-09-26T16:19:58Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > NETA: I get that it could just be a noob. But it also reeks of “I just don’t care enough” which is also pretty fucking anti Town in my book. and i didn’t catch that attitude. i got the more along the lines of i don’t know so i won’t do jack. which in my estimation is as bad, if not worse. and of course since it is in direct conflict with 289 along the lines of staying active and not being in the background it really looks squinky. albeit it it does keep you out of the background. but kind of not in a good or contributory manner. and since it’s early. **vote tom**. obviously subject to change. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938/313 "2009-09-26T16:28:36Z")
Alka Seltzer (1): Boozy Squid jpei (3): Normal Phase, OaOW, Freudian Slit Thomas Scudson (1): peeker ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938/314 "2009-09-26T16:52:45Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > but **tom** you are making my point. let me parse those two sentences in reverse order. > > _We dont’ KNOW that there are third parties…_ > > true enough. maybe so maybe no. > > _"…all else being equal, **which of course it won’t be.** _ > > this infers, in your words, that it’s not just straight up town v scum (how you calcuated the potential mislynches). > > how do you know that? So just to be clear, you first suspected me because my post implied that there were no third parties. Now you suspect me because THE SAME POST implies that I’m certain there ARE third parties. Day 1, grasping at straws, yadda yadda but that’s pretty weak. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938/315 "2009-09-26T17:19:32Z")
**@jpei** - You didn’t vote for AllWalker or Tom because you aren’t familiar with their play, fine. Why didn’t you vote for a player you are familiar with? On **jpei** , it’s possible he can’t vote because of a role restriction. I’ll comment on the wagon once he checks in. I like to give players a chance to react before feeding them ideas they can use. I’m a little suspicious of Normal Phase right now. He brought up the PFK Jester idea, which struck me as possible scum blowing smoke. He also hasn’t explained this, which Jimmy brought up in #164: > [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > Also, like I believe someone pointed out earlier, a leader is shielded from much of the requirement to make themselves accountable for their votes, as they can vote only once, may well be pressured to cast a semi-random vote if they have no strong candidate, just to get things moving (or could feign being so pressured), and can’t ever change their vote afterwards, no matter what comes up. **@Normal Phase** - what you say makes sense, but where did you get the idea from? I can’t see that anyone said that before you in the thread, so I’m considering the possibility that you slipped up and posted an idea you read on the scum board. I’m not ready to place a vote yet as I’m concious that a number of players haven’t contributed a great deal so far. I’m struggling a bit to keep track of 23 other players, but in particular I have no real impression of Chronos, BillMC, Gryph and Nanook so far. **@Boozy** - you were right to point out the problems with my Miller killing idea, but I don’t accept the suggestion was anti-town. The Miller role is a problem for town if we have one, and I’m trying to explore ways of mitigating that. For example, they might be a good target for a compulsive vig if we have one. On preview, I see Tom has checked in. The vote on him looks like a repeat of the last game, where got some votes after he started speculating on the setup. ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938/316 "2009-09-26T17:25:05Z")
> [@jpei](#): > > And Leader is capitalized, sometimes. > > [wild speculation]The worst thing for town right now could be if the vote leader turned out to be some Jim Jones-type figure. Perhaps we could have an informal agreement to limit the exposure of those actually voting for the leader.[/wild speculation] I am not so worried about **jpei** ’s lack of vote as I am about the lame excuses and the above post that appears to laying down some early groundwork for not voting later – a pre-excuse. Makes me wonder if there is some role restriction about voting in elections – similar to OaOW’s restriction about being elected. Other things mildly pinging me at the moment are **peeker** ’s dogged pursuit of TomScud on what looks like pretty shaky grounds and **AlkaSeltzer** ’s obsession with millers. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938/317 "2009-09-26T17:43:37Z")
> [@TexCat](#): > > …and **AlkaSeltzer** ’s obsession with millers. /Wags finger. It would be obsession if I was ignoring other things, which I’m not. I’d prefer to talk about more concrete things rather than hypotheticals, but the closed setup precludes that. My main concerns at this stage are getting everyone in the game and the possibility that the scum can use the leader voting record to their advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938/318 "2009-09-26T18:28:36Z")
Sorry I didn’t post yesterday… I was up late grading Thursday night, and just didn’t have the energy for something as taxing as a Mafia game. Catching up, though: I think that, if a Miller should happen to declare, we should wait at least one Day before lynching them. Lynching the Miller would be too easy a move, and not give us any information. And if we do have a compulsory Vig, a miller would be a better use of that Vig’s bullet than a random player. In short, killing the Miller doesn’t yield much information, but a Vig kill doesn’t give much information in the first place, so it’s less of a loss that way. I dislike the fact that **jpei** didn’t vote for a Leader, since votes are, as everyone said, essential to the game. But I also don’t see a Scum motivation for it, especially not on an early Day where the leader role probably won’t matter much. It looks to me like just a newbie mistake. That said, though, mistakes do need to be learned from and corrected, so I’ll expect **jpei** to vote in future elections (as well as for the lynch, of course). Moving on, there’s the interaction between **peeker** and **Tom Scud**. First he concludes that **Tom** must know that there’s no third parties, then that he must know there are some? “All else being equal (which of course it’s not)” just means that **Tom** is aware that there’s information he doesn’t know. Maybe there’s a third party. Maybe there will be extra kills of some sort (ours or the bad guys’). Maybe some kills will be prevented by a doctor or roleblocker or something. There are all sorts of things that could throw off **Tom** ’s calculations, and it’s a pretty safe bet that at least one of them will happen (without saying which ones). I know this is **peeker** I’m talking about here, but that seems like a really weird thing to attack. FoS **peekercpa** The reason I’m not voting for him, though, is that I have another candidate in mind. I’m always strongly opposed to soft-claims, since Scum doesn’t need to know what powers someone has, they just need to know who has them. Saying that you’re special but not saying how doesn’t help Town, but does help Scum. For that reason, I’ll **Vote One and Only Wanderers** ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938/319 "2009-09-26T18:32:07Z")
Oh, one other thing: Someone posted upthread the possibility of a Lie Detector role, which reminds me that **Mahaloth** had one of those in the Lost game I was in. It probably won’t matter, but it can’t hurt, and in case we have a Lie Detector here, **I am Town-aligned**. ---
**Author:** ![jpei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@jpei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jpei)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938/320 "2009-09-26T19:07:10Z")
> [@Normal\_Phase](#): > > I think that must be the first time I’ve ever seen someone justify not voting by saying it offers information. Points for creativity, at least. > > I also think you have a very specific reason for not voting for leader, even if I don’t know what it is, and that your attempt to justify it is weak. You imply there may be a power role with an effect on the people voting for leader, but if you had voted, you would have been one among 23: what makes you so special? Or is that just a smokescreen? My initial instinct was that you just didn’t want to risk linking yourself to either **AllWalker** or **Tom Scud** for some reason (namely, being Scum together); yet also didn’t want to be part of the other guy’s getting the leadership. I think your explanation is very strange and doesn’t help convince me that initial instinct was wrong. Offering two posts on why I didn’t vote and not voting does offer information. Your “initial instinct” that perhaps I wasn’t willing to play WIFOM. I know it’s difficult to tell personality through typing, but I’ll let the reader decide if I’m the type eager to avoid confrontation. Personally, I view initial instincts in a positive light, but when they start contradicting the facts, I discard them. > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I think not voting for a leader for such a reason is kind of lame. I mean, you could have proposed any one else (other than One and Only) or even yourself. Scum tries to discourage us from talking, from figuring out ways to win the game, etc. Yes, and I’ve been consistently avoiding talk, correct? > [@TexCat](#): > > I am not so worried about **jpei** ’s lack of vote as I am about the lame excuses and the above post that appears to laying down some early groundwork for not voting later – a pre-excuse. Funny that in the exact lines you quote, I offer an alternative method as a shadow election, at least for the first few days. Sure, scum could break the nonbinding agreement at the cost of exposure, but I don’t think we’re at LyLo yet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screamers-mafia/510938.md?page=17)