# Screaming and heckling are not problems on college campuses **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2017, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175 "2017-05-09T02:17:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175/161 "2017-05-14T07:46:24Z")
A question for posters on both sides here: what, if any, is the crossover between your opinion on this issue and your opinion on whether to “teach the controversy” regarding evolution in public schools? Vaccine safety? Another for the white liberals here who argue on the basis of “free speech”: I see complaints by non whites of the more radical bent (who generally, it seems, feel under deadly siege by those in power, physically, socially, and economically, especially these days) that people like you only seem to defend speech when it’s done by white supremacists, and thus directly accuse you of being collaborators with the alt right. It’s an emotional reaction, obviously, but one that seems to me to be natural given the steady drumbeat of injustices and racism that happens these days. So my question is: do you understand where that viewpoint comes from? If not, what don’t you understand? If so, how would you make clear that you’re not saying “Sorry, even though he’s advocating your genocide, I think principles of free speech are more important than your personal safety”? From what I can tell of their perspective, that point of view is to them like how pro single payer advocates see Bricker’s insistence on federalism in regards to health care. Why are they wrong to be afraid that more legitimacy is being given to genocidal beliefs the more they’re heard, thus putting them in more existential danger? One last question: perhaps I missed it, but what’s the status on the OP’s actual subject line? I probably missed something in this long thread, but it feels like everyone is agreeing that “screaming and heckling” IS actually a common enough problem on college campuses to discuss, and are now just arguing the wisdom of such acts. Is that so? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175/162 "2017-05-14T08:52:15Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > A question for posters on both sides here: what, if any, is the crossover between your opinion on this issue and your opinion on whether to “teach the controversy” regarding evolution in public schools? Vaccine safety? There’s no conflict in this for me. If someone in class stood up with those opinions I’d expect them to be listened too and then have their arguments utterly destroyed. A sharp teacher could even use those view as an example of what makes a terrible theory. If you are asking about including it in the official curriculum I’d certainly protest but that would be happening well before the point of those views being voiced. I would also encourage people to go to those lessons equipped with better arguments. I still wouldn’t shout them down though. As any farmer will tell you, bullshit dries up and crumbles when exposed to the sun. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175/163 "2017-05-14T15:48:01Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > When I was in college in the early 1990’s, David Duke (former KKK Grand Wizard) was running for Governor of Louisiana. We hosted his speech at Tulane in a civil manner. Approximately 0% of the audience were white supremacists but they listened and asked pointed questions. THE END. > > There was a small protest outside and I even wrote a letter to the college newspaper that was published basically calling them a bunch of retards in the kindest sense of the word. All they had to do was face their adversary, ask intelligent questions and have firm rebuttals. That should be easy for anyone that is smart as they think they are. I had no idea at the time that things would escalate exponentially in just two decades. > > Instead, we get enough chaos, intimidation, violence and destruction that would make a troop of monkeys blush (presumably on their ass). > > I find it really disappointing that American citizens don’t understand the Constitution and the concept of free speech intuitively. To tell you the truth, the more I read the comments, it sounds like explaining higher math to a bunch of people that simply don’t have the brain horsepower to comprehend it. You can try to explain the basic concepts but, in the end, you either get it or you don’t. > > For reference, I would support any free speech movement in my community no matter the subject as long as they are civil. That is what it means. It’s a tragic indicator that college, high school, and parenting have failed so many. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175/164 "2017-05-14T15:53:16Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > A question for posters on both sides here: what, if any, is the crossover between your opinion on this issue and your opinion on whether to “teach the controversy” regarding evolution in public schools? Vaccine safety? > > Another for the white liberals here who argue on the basis of “free speech”: I see complaints by non whites of the more radical bent (who generally, it seems, feel under deadly siege by those in power, physically, socially, and economically, especially these days) that people like you only seem to defend speech when it’s done by white supremacists, and thus directly accuse you of being collaborators with the alt right. It’s an emotional reaction, obviously, but one that seems to me to be natural given the steady drumbeat of injustices and racism that happens these days. > > So my question is: do you understand where that viewpoint comes from? If not, what don’t you understand? If so, how would you make clear that you’re not saying “Sorry, even though he’s advocating your genocide, I think principles of free speech are more important than your personal safety”? From what I can tell of their perspective, that point of view is to them like how pro single payer advocates see Bricker’s insistence on federalism in regards to health care. Why are they wrong to be afraid that more legitimacy is being given to genocidal beliefs the more they’re heard, thus putting them in more existential danger? I don’t see it. I’m not a liberal but I think it’s perfectly fine if blacks, whites, greens can all speak freely. There are a few things I have a problem with concerning freedom of the press but that’s a different topic. > [@](#): > > One last question: perhaps I missed it, but what’s the status on the OP’s actual subject line? I probably missed something in this long thread, but it feels like everyone is agreeing that “screaming and heckling” IS actually a common enough problem on college campuses to discuss, and are now just arguing the wisdom of such acts. Is that so? Yes. The fact that we have multiple assaults and arsons at universities due to who is speaking indicates a severe problem. At some point violence will be met with violence. Moldylocks vs short hair cut guy is an example of when keeping it real goes wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175/165 "2017-05-14T17:16:50Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > A question for posters on both sides here: what, if any, is the crossover between your opinion on this issue and your opinion on whether to “teach the controversy” regarding evolution in public schools? Vaccine safety? I am curious why you think there’s some kind of overlap here, or even some kind of ‘gotcha’. How does a person’s opinion on evolution or vaccinations matter when the issue is whether it’s okay to crack people over the head with a bike lock for disagreeing with you? For the record, there is no ‘controversy’ over evolution - it’s science, and creationism is religion. One belongs in science class, and one doesn’t. And if you are anti-vax, you’re just an idiot. Idiots can believe in free speech and oppose violence. > [@](#): > > Another for the white liberals here who argue on the basis of “free speech”: I see complaints by non whites of the more radical bent (who generally, it seems, feel under deadly siege by those in power, physically, socially, and economically, especially these days) that people like you only seem to defend speech when it’s done by white supremacists, and thus directly accuse you of being collaborators with the alt right. It’s an emotional reaction, obviously, but one that seems to me to be natural given the steady drumbeat of injustices and racism that happens these days. I am white, but not a liberal. I have defended liberal speech consistently since I can remember. I defended Andres Serrano’s ‘Piss Christ’ against conservative calls for censorship. I even defended Karen Findlay’s obnoxious ‘performance art’, which was clearly intended to shock and outrage the people who didn’t agree with her. Left wing artists used to troll the right with ‘shock art’ all the time. I don’t recall right wing violence over it, > [@](#): > > So my question is: do you understand where that viewpoint comes from? Yeah, it domes from the shitty educations they are getting in the humanities in many colleges, where traditional western values like free speech, free association, and the rule of law are subordinated to the needs of whatever oppressed group is being ‘studied’. > [@](#): > > If not, what don’t you understand? If so, how would you make clear that you’re not saying “Sorry, even though he’s advocating your genocide, I think principles of free speech are more important than your personal safety”? Oh for God’s sake - words are not violence, and your safety is not threatened from hearing them. And anyway, you might want to ask a Jewish student how safe she feels when the campus radicals hold a rally for Palestinian freedom fighters, or how safe a Cuban ex-patriot feels when confronted by some young radical idiot who thinks a Che Guevera T-shirt is cool. Can you see why equating speech with violence is a dead end? You think my examples are absurd, and I think yours are. But if we are going to abandon the principles of free speech and the rule of law, then might makes right, because what constitutes ‘violent’ speech will be determined by whoever is in power. Just how do you think the poor and marginalized people you care about will fare then? > [@](#): > > From what I can tell of their perspective, that point of view is to them like how pro single payer advocates see Bricker’s insistence on federalism in regards to health care. Why are they wrong to be afraid that more legitimacy is being given to genocidal beliefs the more they’re heard, thus putting them in more existential danger? Bricker’s opinions on health care are not an existential threat to anyone. Perhaps you don’t know what that word means? > [@](#): > > One last question: perhaps I missed it, but what’s the status on the OP’s actual subject line? I probably missed something in this long thread, but it feels like everyone is agreeing that “screaming and heckling” IS actually a common enough problem on college campuses to discuss, and are now just arguing the wisdom of such acts. Is that so? How common does it have to be before it’s a problem? If some skinheads are beating up gay college students, how many such incidents would you sweep away before you decided that it was common enough to be a problem? When freaking _Jerry Seinfeld_ won’t do campus gigs because the students can’t handle his comedy, there’s a serious problem with those students, the people teaching them nonsense, or both. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175/166 "2017-05-14T18:16:54Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > A question for posters on both sides here: what, if any, is the crossover between your opinion on this issue and your opinion on whether to “teach the controversy” regarding evolution in public schools? Vaccine safety? Are Milo Yiannopolous or Ann Coulter teachers at a university? No? There goes your analogy. > [@Leaper](#): > > So my question is: do you understand where that viewpoint comes from? If not, what don’t you understand? If so, how would you make clear that you’re not saying “Sorry, even though he’s advocating your genocide, I think principles of free speech are more important than your personal safety”? White liberals don’t need to “stand up” for extreme left views because _there are no riots or violence when such views are dispensed_. The reason “white liberals” will defend teh ev1l nazis is because the violence, shouting down, and intimidation are only occurring _against_ the right. Do you understand where that comes from? If not, what don’t you understand? > [@Leaper](#): > > Why are they wrong to be afraid that more legitimacy is being given to genocidal beliefs the more they’re heard, thus putting them in more existential danger? Your insistence that such an existential threat represents anything close to a mainstream viewpoint is the shrill voice of hyperbole that emboldens these kids into thinking they are preventing the next Holocaust by violently shutting down these speakers. Pro Tip: the Final Solution isn’t coming. Stop buying into that garbage. > [@Leaper](#): > > One last question: perhaps I missed it, but what’s the status on the OP’s actual subject line? I probably missed something in this long thread, but it feels like everyone is agreeing that “screaming and heckling” IS actually a common enough problem on college campuses to discuss, and are now just arguing the wisdom of such acts. Is that so? [Milo Yiannopolous](https://youtu.be/y3z_jqbLCz0) [Jordan Peterson](https://youtu.be/uMsi61OtkE4) [Charles Murray](https://youtu.be/utwrCc5cSRY) (note that a woman teacher who was urging the students to stop their behavior and allow him to speak was injured by one of the protesters and had to go to the hospital) I’ve got more, in case you don’t understand where we’re coming from. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175/167 "2017-05-14T18:49:49Z")
[QUOTE=Inbred Mm domesticus] According to the Wiki on the Berkeley Free Speech movement, there was a backlash against the Leftist protesters that led to Reagan as governor of California. Yet here it is that conservatives are very concerned about political speech on campus. Time will tell if this tactic becomes more commonplace. My guess is that it is already everywhere but since the Leftist students are doing it then suddenly it’s a problem. [/QUOTE] Do you understand you are making my point for me here? Otherwise…huh? So, there was a backlash against ‘Leftist protesters’ that led to Reagan? Leaving aside that ‘conservatives are concerned about political speech on campus’, shouldn’t LIBERALS also be concerned since, according you to it was just such a backlash that led to Reagan? Which was, of course, the point I was making. Only the faithful are going to be good with such antics. > [@](#): > > Again, this discussion is not about the violence that has accompanied some of these events. Most of this behavior occurs without violence. For example, I’ve never seen anyone get hurt during the protests that often occur at Congressional hearings on CSPAN. Continuously attempting to associate the discussion of a tactic, its ethics and consequences with the violence that sometimes occurs is unfair rhetorically. Know why protests at CSPAN are generally not that news worthy? Because they don’t lead to the sorts of violence and other antics you are claiming isn’t a problem on college campuses. Know why these sorts of stories ARE getting a lot of public attention? Because most of them aren’t occurring ‘without violence’, whether it’s physical or not. And, getting back to the point above, it hurts the cause and tends to make people more receptive to that which is trying to be stifled…after all, no one is going to get as worked up as these folks you are defending seem to be if there wasn’t some fire in all that smoke, right? You can keep trying to justify their actions, and keep trying to disassociate them from the violence, but it’s all part of the same issue, and indicative of the same fundamental problem. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Sanchez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e19adc/32.png) [@Rick\_Sanchez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Sanchez)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175/168 "2017-05-14T20:27:26Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Can you see why equating speech with violence is a dead end? You think my examples are absurd, and I think yours are. But if we are going to abandon the principles of free speech and the rule of law, then might makes right, because what constitutes ‘violent’ speech will be determined by whoever is in power. Just how do you think the poor and marginalized people you care about will fare then? This is a good point which I don’t see being made anywhere near enough. The only reason the ‘speech = violence’ crowd isn’t being _crushed_ by the rest of us is because we _aren’t_ buying their bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175/169 "2017-05-15T01:01:38Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > When I was in college in the early 1990’s, David Duke (former KKK Grand Wizard) was running for Governor of Louisiana. We hosted his speech at Tulane in a civil manner. Approximately 0% of the audience were white supremacists but they listened and asked pointed questions. THE END. David Duke [won 55% of the white vote](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Duke#1991_campaign_for_Governor_of_Louisiana). You’re gonna have a real hard time convincing anyone that 0% of the audience at his Tulane speech was white supremacists. > [@](#): > > I had no idea at the time that things would escalate exponentially in just two decades. I know! How have we gone from the peaceful days of yore, when a Klan leader nearly won the governorship of Louisiana, to today’s terrible times! Oh how I long for the old South. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175/170 "2017-05-15T01:05:34Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Another for the white liberals here who argue on the basis of “free speech”: I see complaints by non whites of the more radical bent (who generally, it seems, feel under deadly siege by those in power, physically, socially, and economically, especially these days) that people like you only seem to defend speech when it’s done by white supremacists, and thus directly accuse you of being collaborators with the alt right. It’s an emotional reaction, obviously, but one that seems to me to be natural given the steady drumbeat of injustices and racism that happens these days. What do I say to them? I say they’re wrong. I mean, I get that it’s an emotional reaction, but it’s also a lie. > [@](#): > > If so, how would you make clear that you’re not saying “Sorry, even though he’s advocating your genocide, I think principles of free speech are more important than your personal safety”? It’s easy: I’m not saying that. Personal safety involves actual safety. Some folks like to say, “Free speech isn’t a suicide pact,” and they’re correct, but not how they think they are: free speech won’t kill you, is the real truth in that slogan. More importantly, I think that shutting down speakers is a shitty tactic. It doesn’t win hearts and minds, it doesn’t persuade anyone. That’s not how our species works. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175/171 "2017-05-15T01:05:50Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Well… Professor Melissa Click can be seen on video during the Mizzou protests, calling for some ‘muscle’ to stop the horrible scourge of people taking photographs in a public place. During the Berkeley riot, the guy who was swinging a bike lock at the heads of Republicans appears to be a professor of ethics at Canton College. Assault charges have been filed against him. > > Not quite the same thing as stepping in to protect people, but you know…different times. Yeah, makes me wonder if it isnt the college professors somehow leading the protests from behind? What is really needed is a strong security presence where they arrest everyone involved and expose their names. Afterwards investigate to find out who put them up to and funded this crap. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2017, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175/172 "2017-05-15T02:02:50Z")
Yeah, except that this is Berkeley, where most of the people you would need to stop this kind of stuff are actively supporting Antifa. News flash: if your ‘anti-fascist’ protest requires you to wear black, cover your face with a mask, and beat on people who are legally and peacefully assembling to hear someone speak, they might not be the fascists in the room. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175/173 "2017-05-16T01:57:01Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Only the faithful are going to be good with such antics. I’m not sure that I disagree with your analysis of the effects of these protests but I can’t get past your last observation. These protests may be very effective in recruiting students on these campuses. I would certainly have been tempted to join these kinds of protests when I went to college. It’s appealing to be unapologetically against an idea so strongly that you feel the best response is to shout down a speaker who voices pseudoscience or hate speech disguised as an intellectual or political perspective. I am unsure if the tactic has a net benefit for those behaving this way. I never felt compelled to look up Code Pink until I saw their members get kicked out of committee meetings. If I was more sympathetic to their cause I might donate to them. Let’s say before getting kicked out of Congress Code Pink had 100 supporters. I might be 101. Did they lose 2 supporters? They may have 100 people on Fox pissing and moaning about them, but did they lose 2 donations for my 1? I don’t know. > [@XT](#): > > Know why protests at CSPAN are generally not that news worthy? Because they don’t lead to the sorts of violence and other antics you are claiming isn’t a problem on college campuses. Know why these sorts of stories ARE getting a lot of public attention? Because most of them aren’t occurring ‘without violence’, whether it’s physical or not. Do you have numbers to back up your assertion? This tactic shows up everywhere (how many news stories are there now of Republican Congresspeople backing out of auditoriums or facing a crowd that yells at them) and without any violence whatsoever. I do not believe colleges are somehow more prone to this method of protest leading to violence. I am actually more disturbed by the number of people who discount a person’s civil liberties because they are rude in using them. I am glad liberals are willing to be rude. I am glad liberals are willing to be pushy and assertive in determining the world they want to live in. This is politics: being louder than your opponent and strengthening your base are important to victory. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175/174 "2017-05-16T02:14:26Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I am white, but not a liberal. I have defended liberal speech consistently since I can remember. I defended Andres Serrano’s ‘Piss Christ’ against conservative calls for censorship. I even defended Karen Findlay’s obnoxious ‘performance art’, which was clearly intended to shock and outrage the people who didn’t agree with her. Left wing artists used to troll the right with ‘shock art’ all the time. I don’t recall right wing violence over it. [Maybe you should have been paying better attention?](https://www.newcriterion.com/posts.cfm/Piss-Christ---Art--and-Violence-6908) > [@](#): > > On Palm Sunday in 2011, for instance, a group of radical young Christians stormed a gallery in Avignon, France, which was displaying Piss Christ as part of an exhibit. They made their way past security, threatened a guard with a hammer, broke through the Plexiglas protecting the image, and slashed it with a sharp object. In 1997 at the National Gallery of Victoria in Australia, the work was also vandalized, and gallery officials received death threats for showing it. In 2007, a group of neo-Nazis attacked a Serrano show in Sweden (though Piss Christ was not on display there). ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175/175 "2017-05-16T02:28:17Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I am unsure if the tactic has a net benefit for those behaving this way. I never felt compelled to look up Code Pink until I saw their members get kicked out of committee meetings. If I was more sympathetic to their cause I might donate to them. Let’s say before getting kicked out of Congress Code Pink had 100 supporters. I might be 101. Did they lose 2 supporters? They may have 100 people on Fox pissing and moaning about them, but did they lose 2 donations for my 1? I don’t know. > . If only people like you cared as much about the civil rights of people who don’t think like you as they do about ‘tactics’, the world would be a better place. Again - if you think cracking skulls, storming facilities or shouting down people who have a legal right to speak is somehow advancing the cause of human rights, you need to get your contradiction detector checked out. And while you are at it, you should also find the time to feel ashamed that you think that way. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175/176 "2017-05-16T10:22:19Z")
Temperamentally I agree with the idea that allowing free speech and winning the debate is the best way to deal with extremists, but I think it needs more of an evidence base than it’s currently got. These quotes all illustrate the basic arguments for free speech, but their claims deserve to be tested. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It’s easy: I’m not saying that. Personal safety involves actual safety. Some folks like to say, “Free speech isn’t a suicide pact,” and they’re correct, but not how they think they are: free speech won’t kill you, is the real truth in that slogan. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > If only people like you cared as much about the civil rights of people who don’t think like you as they do about ‘tactics’, the world would be a better place. > > Again - if you think cracking skulls, storming facilities or shouting down people who have a legal right to speak is somehow advancing the cause of human rights, you need to get your contradiction detector checked out. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > As any farmer will tell you, bullshit dries up and crumbles when exposed to the sun. The Weimar Republic was not short of debaters willing to argue against Nazism. (Yes, I’m going there. Claims that allowing extremists free speech is \*\*always \*\*better than silencing them should be able stand up against a known group of extremists.) Hitler had plenty of political opponents, none of whom were shy about saying he was wrong, and plenty of whom were plenty smart. He was given every opportunity to speak freely, even after he got out of jail for leading an attempted putsch. Civil society spoke out against him, political opponents denounced him, leading newspapers took an anti-Nazi line that at times was just _scathing_. And yet, somehow, it didn’t work. The bullshit didn’t crumble in the sun. The debate was lost, not won. Now, I know there’s one obvious explanation for this - none of the intellectuals, trade unionists or clergy of Weimar era Germany knew how to debate as well as we do. They lacked our awesome rhetoric and instinctive empathy with the common people. This is certainly possible and we should give it due consideration. But let’s assume for the moment that Hitler’s opponents were at least as capable of debate as we are. We can see clearly that their approach didn’t work. On the upside, they did preserve a due regard for the civil rights of people they disagreed with, which is clearly a very important consideration. Imagine if Hitler and his Munich Nazis had been shouted down, or even had their skulls cracked or facilities stormed when they were exercising their legal right to speak. What horrors might have resulted? We’ll never know, happily. What we do know is the ultimate effect of preserving the Nazis’ right to free speech on the human rights of others. We know, bluntly, that free speech did kill people. We know that the cause of human rights would have been advanced quite considerably if people had used force to bully and scare the Nazis into shutting up. Now, none of this is to say that all the people who find their speech being shut down by students are actual Nazis. ([Apart, obviously, from the ones that are](http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/18/politics/auburn-richard-spencer-protests/)). But is to suggest that there are in fact limits to the “sunshine is the best disinfectant” approach and that it would be useful to have an idea of when it stops being a practical guide to the best way to counter extremism and starts being ahistorical wishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175/177 "2017-05-16T11:13:56Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > Imagine if Hitler and his Munich Nazis had been shouted down, or even had their skulls cracked or facilities stormed when they were exercising their legal right to speak. What horrors might have resulted? We’ll never know, happily. We don’t have to imagine anything. The communists and socialists had their own street gangs that regularly battled it out with the Nazi’s. People got killed. Does the name Horst Wessel ring a bell? Not to mention that there were several assassination attempts on Hitler himself. Your little revisionist diatribe against free speech is based on some serious…let’s say…omissions. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175/178 "2017-05-16T11:54:59Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > We don’t have to imagine anything. > The communists and socialists had their own street gangs that regularly battled it out with the Nazi’s. People got killed. Does the name Horst Wessel ring a bell? > Not to mention that there were several assassination attempts on Hitler himself. > > Your little revisionist diatribe against free speech is based on some serious…let’s say…omissions. Spare me the melodrama. Yes, there were communist and socialist street gangs. Clearly, they didn’t crack enough skulls to silence the Nazis because the Nazis kept on getting to speak. There were also condemnation and debate conducted on the basis of civil discourse and free speech. Does the name Fritz Gerlich ring a bell? How about Theodor Wolff? If free speech and sunlight and debate are such effective anti-extremists tools, how did the Nazis go from 3% of the vote to 33% in five years? Why didn’t sunlight disinfect? It may have been because when the Nazis took part in street brawls it made them look good, and that if only the debaters had been given a clear playing field all would have been well. But is free speech really that weak, that that’s all it takes? The truth is that when the Nazis were allowed in to the sunlight they flourished. “You used to be great. It’s other people’s fault your not. Give me power and I can make you great again.” is a really appealing argument that will always find supporters. People liked hearing what the Nazis had to say and when opponents tried to argue against them they lost. Any arguments about how amazing free speech is as an anti-extremist tool need to be able to deal with that. I love the idea that civil discourse is a simple as letting all ideas into the marketplace and watching the good ones flourish. IT chimes whole-heartedly with my liberal instincts. But we know it doesn’t actually work like that in practice. So what do you do with diseases so virulent that sunlight doesn’t disinfect them? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175/179 "2017-05-16T12:39:27Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > Spare me the melodrama. Oh, the irony… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175/180 "2017-05-16T15:50:08Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > Spare me the melodrama. Are you shitting me? You bring Hitler into the thread, you don’t get to be spared melodrama. This sort of sophistry drives me crazy in educational circles, too: “You can’t object to this new faddish program we’re implementing, because what we’re currently doing obviously doesn’t work, we have to try SOMETHING.” It’s bullshit in education, it’s bullshit here, for one good reason: we don’t know what things would be like if we weren’t doing what we’re currently doing. Neither debate societies nor street gangs stopped Hitler’s rise. You can’t point to the success of antifa and their like anywhere. I, however, can point to David Duke’s losses in Louisiana as the success of debate societies. I can point to the removal of Confederate statues. I can point to the Civil Rights movement, and the movement to allow same-sex relationships to be afforded full legal rights, and many other successes of free speech. Yes, it’s possible that an increase in shouting down Republicans would have prevented Trump’s rise to power. But from what I’ve seen, it’s a lot likelier that it would have hastened his rise. This isn’t, for me at least, mainly about free speech principles. Free speech is great, but it’s not nearly as important as physical safety, or the safety of my family, and few people who say otherwise have done so while their families faced real threats to their safety. Free speech is a means to an end. I firmly believe that allowing the repulsive toads like Milo and Coulter to speak their piece will result in a more, not less, just world. Silencing them is the free speech equivalent of letting Obi Wan win the duel against Darth Vader: it woulda made him rise up stronger than Kenobi could have imagined. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screaming-and-heckling-are-not-problems-on-college-campuses/786175.md?page=10)