# Screenplays -- complexity in character, story and storytelling **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 18, 2008, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screenplays-complexity-in-character-story-and-storytelling/449709 "2008-05-18T01:24:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screenplays-complexity-in-character-story-and-storytelling/449709/1 "2008-05-18T01:24:48Z")
Some friends gave me a book called _How to Build a Great Screenplay_ by David Howard, who apparently teaches graduate screenwriting classes at USC. I was looking through it; it mostly seems to say the same things as Syd Field’s book _Screenplay_, but in three times as many words, as well as going into more depth on some subjects. In the chapter “Time and Complexity”, he talks about three elements of any screenplay: character, story and storytelling. He posits that, if you want a coherent movie that people will be able to get into, you can make any two of those elements complex, but not all three. (Complex storytelling includes not only nonlinear chronology, flashbacks, fantasy and dream sequences and the like, but also any large-scale set-piece action scene, such as a battle.) That sounds reasonable, and I think I know what he means, but the chapter could use more examples. He mentions _Star Wars_ as a movie with a complex story (and it is; silly but complex), complex storytelling, but simple, even archetypal characters. Fair enough. He mentions _Citizen Kane_ as having a famously complex storytelling technique, and being about a complex character, but actually boiling down to a simple story. Most of my ideas (including the penguin-related screenplay I’m still working on, after winning at Script Frenzy) seem to involve both complex characters and complex stories, so I guess I’ll need to use pretty straightforward narrative techniques for the sake of clarity. Howard’s position is that, if all three of those elements are complex, it’ll be too much for an audience to keep track of, and they won’t be able to emotionally connect with the picture. I can see that making sense for a two-hour movie; if you have the space of a novel (or a tv miniseries or series) there’s time for the reader or audience to absorb everything. (Though it seems to me that the upcoming movie of _Watchmen_, if they’re really trying to be faithful to the source material, is going to be complex in all three areas.) So, what do y’all think of this rule, and what are some good examples of each combination? ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screenplays-complexity-in-character-story-and-storytelling/449709/2 "2008-05-18T02:25:28Z")
[QUOTE=Baldwin] So, what do y’all think of this rule, and what are some good examples of each combination? [/QUOTE] It seems like a good enough rule of thumb to me. As to examples: Complex storytelling, complex story, simple characters: Pulp Fiction Complex storytelling, simple story, complex characters: Lord of the Rings Simple storytelling, complex story, complex characters: Fargo Eh, it’s late. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screenplays-complexity-in-character-story-and-storytelling/449709/3 "2008-05-18T03:22:23Z")
I think the “rule” is often correct, but not always. **Crash** has all three. Complex storytelling (many different interlocked stories), complex characters (consider the Matt Dillon character), and complex plot (it can only be described in terms of its theme). **Short Cuts** has all three, too, as does **Nashville**. There’s also **Memento** and **Traffic**. So it can be done. It’s just hard to do. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screenplays-complexity-in-character-story-and-storytelling/449709/4 "2008-05-18T18:28:33Z")
Thanks, guys; good examples. (I should have added that “simple characters” doesn’t mean they represent simple-minded people, just that we don’t get into the character in much depth.) [QUOTE=RealityChuck] I think the “rule” is often correct, but not always. **Crash** has all three. Complex storytelling (many different interlocked stories), complex characters (consider the Matt Dillon character), and complex plot (it can only be described in terms of its theme). **Short Cuts** has all three, too, as does **Nashville**. There’s also **Memento** and **Traffic**. So it can be done. It’s just hard to do. [/QUOTE] Interesting; I think, except for _Memento_, those all work because the plot, as a narrative, isn’t as important as the unfolding themes and relationships. Yeah, _Memento_ definitely requires paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screenplays-complexity-in-character-story-and-storytelling/449709/5 "2008-05-18T19:10:26Z")
[QUOTE=Baldwin] In the chapter “Time and Complexity”, he talks about three elements of any screenplay: character, story and storytelling. He posits that, if you want a coherent movie that people will be able to get into, you can make any two of those elements complex, but not all three. So, what do y’all think of this rule, and what are some good examples of each combination? [/QUOTE] Great thread! I would say _Fight Club_ has: Simple character, complex story and storytelling. It seems once you figure out the secret of the characters, it falls into this structure. But I could be wrong and all three could be complex. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screenplays-complexity-in-character-story-and-storytelling/449709/6 "2008-05-18T22:04:01Z")
[QUOTE=5-4-Fighting] Great thread! I would say _Fight Club_ has: Simple character, complex story and storytelling. It seems once you figure out the secret of the characters, it falls into this structure. But I could be wrong and all three could be complex. [/QUOTE] It’s interesting how the same movie can be seen from different angles by different people. I would have said _Fightclub_ had complex characters (just because of the unusual nature of the two main characters), and a complex storytelling method (with the narration, flashbacks/fantasy scenes) but a fairly simple storyline once you work out what it is. Maybe I don’t really have to worry about this. I think I’ve got a fairly good feel for whether something is working. By the time I finish a screenplay, if somebody reading it doesn’t have a clear idea of what’s going on, and/or doesn’t connect with the characters, I’ll have to change something. I do know that, as Nigel Tufnel said, “There’s a fine line between clever and stupid.” I’d gladly sacrifice some clever storytelling gimmick if it gets in the way of the story clicking for people. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screenplays-complexity-in-character-story-and-storytelling/449709/7 "2008-05-18T22:24:27Z")
[QUOTE=RealityChuck] I think the “rule” is often correct, but not always. **Crash** has all three. Complex storytelling (many different interlocked stories), complex characters (consider the Matt Dillon character), and complex plot (it can only be described in terms of its theme). **Short Cuts** has all three, too, as does **Nashville**. [/QUOTE] I haven’t seen the other two, but \*\*Short Cuts \*\* doesn’t really have a complex story, but rather several very simple stories. Now, you could say that all thise stories come together into one big, complex meta-story - but while I have no problem seeing the shared themes, I don’t see much of a big picture, plot-wise. The pupose of the stories is to illustrate the characters. They’re there to give them something to do, nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screenplays-complexity-in-character-story-and-storytelling/449709/8 "2008-05-18T22:31:37Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] I haven’t seen the other two, but \*\*Short Cuts \*\* doesn’t really have a complex story, but rather several very simple stories. Now, you could say that all thise stories come together into one big, complex meta-story - but while I have no problem seeing the shared themes, I don’t see much of a big picture, plot-wise. The pupose of the stories is to illustrate the characters. They’re there to give them something to do, nothing more. [/QUOTE] But the point is that many simple plots make a complex plot. **Any** complex plot can be broken down into simpler elements. \*\*Pulp Fiction, \*\*for instance, which was cited here, is made up of simpler stories: various adventures of Vinnie Vega plus the story of Bruce Coolidge. The interesting thing about **Short Cuts** was that it connected many different existing stories into a unified whole. It was clearly not a plot-driven film, but what plot there was is too complex to easily describe. ---
**Author:** ![Talon\_Karrde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Talon\_Karrde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Talon_Karrde)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screenplays-complexity-in-character-story-and-storytelling/449709/9 "2008-05-18T23:24:06Z")
IRT Fight Club, I would say the characters, story, and storytelling are all complex, but during the first viewing the characters appear to be simple. You can see another dimension to them once you know what’s going on. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screenplays-complexity-in-character-story-and-storytelling/449709/10 "2008-05-20T23:16:05Z")
[QUOTE=Talon Karrde] IRT Fight Club, I would say the characters, story, and storytelling are all complex, but during the first viewing the characters appear to be simple. You can see another dimension to them once you know what’s going on. [/QUOTE] I did allow that there might be a tri-complex structure, but thought figuring out “who” Tyler Durden was made the characters simple because that helped me figure out and concentrate on _why_ the complex storytelling was unfolding the way it was. **Baldwin** , I recently wrote a screenplay that “failed” in writing class because all three parts were too complex – the class loved the writing but had problems keeping up with all that was going on. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2008, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screenplays-complexity-in-character-story-and-storytelling/449709/11 "2008-05-21T01:08:41Z")
[QUOTE=Baldwin] That sounds reasonable, and I think I know what he means, but the chapter could use more examples. He mentions _Star Wars_ as a movie with a complex story (and it is; silly but complex), complex storytelling, but simple, even archetypal characters. Fair enough. He mentions _Citizen Kane_ as having a famously complex storytelling technique, and being about a complex character, but actually boiling down to a simple story. [/QUOTE] I would disagree with both of these assessments. The essential plot of _Star Wars_ is really quite simple (although the backstory is far more complicated, but almost entirely unrevealed in _Star Wars_); the only complexity is that it is told from the standpoint of Luke, who doesn’t know what is going on, so only bits and pieces are revealed at a time. _Citizen Kane_, however, has a fairly complex plot insofar as the story is the eponymous character. The business about the newspapermen trying to figure out what his expiring comment means isn’t the story, it’s just a framing device to tell the story of the life of Charles Foster Kane. (As a test of this, make a flowchart of what Luke was doing and why he was doing it, and then the same about Kane.) I haven’t read Howard, but from your description it sounds like he’s taking a very general principle–make the storytelling and characters only as complex or detailed as they need to be to tell the story–and trying to turn it into some kind of algorithm for screenwriting success. The elements need to be as complex as to satisfy your intended audience and no more. A puzzle movie like _Momento_ or _The Spanish Prisoner_ have overly complex plotting or narrative technique because that’s their hook; they leave relatively little room for deep characterization because it doesn’t drive the plot. Movies like _The Third Man_ or _The Guns of Navarone_ have relatively linear, episodic plots because they’re far more interested in the responses of characters to challenge and crisis. Films like _Die Hard_ or _Raiders of the Lost Ark_ have simple plots and sparse (but essential) characterization to facilitate a string of otherwise unlikely action set piece scenes. In a movie like _The Conformist_ or _The Passenger_, the plot is pretty minimal because it is just a framework for character exploration and existential noodling. And Michael Bay and Tony Scott films have a plot written in crayon and no real characterization because all the audience expects is that shit blow up real good (which is why these directors do so poorly when given something resembling a real screenplay). I would say that in general, a mainstream film–i.e. not an arthouse puzzler or character study–needs to be readily contextualized; that is to say, that you should be able to pick up the screenplay, turn to a random point, and be able to discern the general schema of the plot within ten pages (which is roughly equivalent to ten minutes of screen time). If you can’t encapsulate the general gist of the film into any given ten minutes you’re not going to hold the attention of the average moviegoer. Stranger