# Screw France **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 4, 2003, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792 "2003-02-04T21:28:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![micilin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8c91f0/32.png) [@micilin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/micilin)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792/101 "2003-02-06T18:40:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doghouse Reilly \* > \*\*Just as long as it’s not Pauline Hanson \*\* Mmm… Fish and chips. On another note: Now that you’ve divvied up the flower of French womanhood amongst you, I take it I can keep my dibs on Beatrice Dalle circa ‘Betty Blue’. And yojimbo’s right about his temper. Don’t make his anger angry, you wouldn’t like it when its angry. micilin ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792/102 "2003-02-06T19:39:23Z")
Okay, now I’m confused. When **Mothchunks** made a harmless joke about underarm hair, **TwistofFate** calls him a racist xenophobe. When **Neurotik** called the population of Ireland a bunch of drunks, **Twisty** replies with a joke and a smiley face. How is the first racism and the second good clean fun? Anyway, moving right along: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Gary Kumquat_ > Miller, I like you I really do. But bearing in mind that this is an international forum, do you really wonder why people might just react angrily to sweeping insults and stereotyped jokes at another countries expense? Agreed. You might notice I said exactly the same thing in the bit of my last post you quoted. > [@](#): > > To give example, if I start routinely posting comments about Americans being burger-eating fat fucks, or ignorant hicks with tv addictions, how do you reckon you might react. Knock yourself out. If you’re funny enough, I might join in. I don’t invest my sense of self worth in the patch of ground my mom happened to be standing on nine months after she fucked my dad. > [@](#): > > If I post an OP called “Screw America”, saying your country is an enemy of the EU and should be labelled a terrorist nation, how do you reckon you might react. Well, that would be a factually inaccurate argument. How I responded would depend on the context of the OP. If he sounded genuinely ignorant, I’d probably try to correct his misapprehensions. If it were just a troll looking to start a fight, I’d ignore him. Since the poster of this hypothetical thread would be you, **Gary** , and I’ve seen enough of your posts to know you’re not a troll, I’d probably go with option number one. > [@](#): > > I can practically guarantee that pretty much all of the posters who have here jumped on the anti-french comments would just as quickly jump on such anti-US statements. No doubt they would, because they’ve already proven themselves to be, no offence, over-sensitive to this issue. And while I’d appreciate you guys’ support, really, 'tain’t necessary. At least as far as I’m concerned. > [@](#): > > So with the best will in the world, its no more harmless a joke than any other form of racism, and damned if I will cut slack on it. Sorry, and no offence. That’s a very noble sentiment, but also a waste of time, as the intent behind the vast majority of these jokes isn’t malicious. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t say anything: these jokes bother you, and that’s understandable. All I’m saying is, instead of going right into Hunter-Killer mode, a more polite response, at least initially, would probably be more effective. And as a last note, there are a _lot_ of far more dangerous forms of racism than calling someone a cheese-eating surrender monkey. No one ever lynched a Frenchman just for being French, or beat one to death because he came out of a French bar. Let’s try to keep that much in perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Gorgon\_Heap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f475e1/32.png) [@Gorgon\_Heap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorgon_Heap)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792/103 "2003-02-06T20:48:05Z")
Beware **Miller** , you may start some new trends. Well, no, not really, but your perspective is sound on this. ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_Loves_Co)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792/104 "2003-02-06T21:11:26Z")
**Miller** - touche’ The bigotry implied by “CESM” is not on par with true racism - However, I still think there’s more than enough justification to consider devotees of the expression and sentiment assholes. Their behavior serves to strengthen all the negative stereotypes of Americans - stereotypes America seems to be proud of. It’s embarrassing when it isn’t just dull. ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_Loves_Co)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792/105 "2003-02-06T21:22:42Z")
Besides - if you’ve told someone that they’re coming across as belligerant, juvenile, and offensive, and they don’t seem to care, then what can you do? As the saying goes: “Don’t try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.” ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_Loves_Co)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792/106 "2003-02-06T21:25:17Z")
Blah. . . Let me rephrase my first post : Stereotypes that _these people_ seem proud of. I’m sure there are some Americans who are NOT proud of the stereotype, and I’ll just try to back away from that rhetorical pitfall . . . 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Amok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Amok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amok)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792/107 "2003-02-06T21:58:38Z")
> [@](#): > > _Miller wrote:_ > > No one ever lynched a Frenchman just for being French Well, no, not that I’m aware of in the U.S. Though as recently as a few weeks ago, when citizens of Abidjan rioted over thier dislike of the French negioted peace treaty for the Ivory Coast, French civilians were beaten. Now, most likely none of the members of this board who joke about the French are Ivory Coastians (Ivory Coastites?), but this being an international board and all, you never know. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792/108 "2003-02-07T00:09:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Amok \* > \*\*Now, most likely none of the members of this board who joke about the French are Ivory Coastians (Ivory Coastites?), but this being an international board and all, you never know. \*\* Ivorians. Since less than 1/2 of the population is literate, they speak French and 60 native dialects, not English, and there are only 10,000 internet users out of a population of 16.8 million, or .05% (not 5%) of the population, it is rather not likely at all. [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/iv.html](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/iv.html) ---
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792/109 "2003-02-07T00:51:01Z")
Hmmm… I’m having a little trouble doing some [research for this thread…](http://www.pizzaladifference.com/Google.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792/110 "2003-02-07T01:26:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Amok \* > \*\*Well, no, not that I’m aware of in the U.S. Though as recently as a few weeks ago, when citizens of Abidjan rioted over thier dislike of the French negioted peace treaty for the Ivory Coast, French civilians were beaten. Now, most likely none of the members of this board who joke about the French are Ivory Coastians (Ivory Coastites?), but this being an international board and all, you never know. \*\* You’re absolutely right, and that’s part of what I was trying to get at: there isn’t any real history of anti-French bigotry in the US, so most Americans, even if they aren’t joining in on the jokes, don’t really see what the big deal is. It’s funny to be pretend to be bigoted against the French, because no one is _really_ bigoted against them. However, I imagine that for people who live in countries near France and who deal with French people regularly, that’s not the case. I’m sure there are people in other countries who really do hate the French, the way Klansmen hate blacks in the US. Which is why this stuff is so offensive to people like **Gary** and **Twistoffate** , because it resonates with actual social problems where they live. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by MLC_\*\* > Besides - if you’ve told someone that they’re coming across as belligerant, juvenile, and offensive, and they don’t seem to care, then what can you do?\*\* Well, it would partially depend on how you told them that in the first place. If you tried being reasonable with’em and explaining your concerns, but they kept it up anyway, yeah, flame the hell out of them. But if you start off with, “Hey asshole,” just about anyone is going to get their backs up and get belligerent right back at you. The person making these jokes might not be an asshole, he just might not realize to what a large audience he is playing. On the Internet, everyone has the same accent. Just look at **yojimbo** or **Gary Kumquat**. They speak English so well, you’d never guess they were foreigners! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792/111 "2003-02-07T03:54:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*Knock yourself out. If you’re funny enough, I might join in. I don’t invest my sense of self worth in the patch of ground my mom happened to be standing on nine months after she fucked my dad. \*\* That’s a perfectly reasonable position. OTOH, if “burger-eating fat fuck” came up from several different posters every single time America was mentioned in a discussion on food, and if any American’s opinions on food were dismissed with “a burger-eating fat fuck is telling _us_ how to cook? If it weren’t for us, you’d be gnawing on bark and twigs right now, so shut up,” it might start getting under your skin after a while. It’s not the statements in and of themselves, it’s the constant repetition from so many sides that gets wearying. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Wrong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@Mr.Wrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Wrong)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792/112 "2003-02-07T04:09:13Z")
> [@](#): > > C) Nobody likes a Belgian. You must not be doing it right, then. Are you sure you’re using enough lubricant? ---
**Author:** ![Dumbguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dumbguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumbguy)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792/113 "2003-02-07T05:13:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > **I don’t invest my sense of self worth in the patch of ground my mom happened to be standing on nine months after she fucked my dad.** Well fucking said. Think we could get them to put that on the dollar bill. They could put it in place of ‘Novus Orvo Seclorum’, which is Latin for ‘you can trade this for some potatoes’. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792/114 "2003-02-07T11:24:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*That’s a very noble sentiment, but also a waste of time, as the intent behind the vast majority of these jokes isn’t malicious…And as a last note, there are a _lot_ of far more dangerous forms of racism than calling someone a cheese-eating surrender monkey. No one ever lynched a Frenchman just for being French, or beat one to death because he came out of a French bar. Let’s try to keep that much in perspective. \*\* Miller, I guess it’s agree to disagree time. I just can’t view “it’s only a joke” and “it never killed anyone” as acceptable excuses for racism or any other form of bigotry. I guess this does come down to a question of perspective and upbringing. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792/115 "2003-02-07T11:32:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*You’re absolutely right, and that’s part of what I was trying to get at: there isn’t any real history of anti-French bigotry in the US, so most Americans, even if they aren’t joining in on the jokes, don’t really see what the big deal is. It’s funny to be pretend to be bigoted against the French, because no one is _really_ bigoted against them. \*\* It has to start somewhere. I think it already has. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792/116 "2003-02-07T11:51:04Z")
Miller, I called him an ignorant xenophobe, not a racist one. Ity wasn’t harmless, it was perpetuating a stereotype that all french women aren’t hygenic.would it be acceptable for me to say that all American women are selfcentered ugly bints? Of course not. I would be expected to be called up on that, so I called Mothchunks on his remark. What if the Statue of Liberty had been a gift from Cameroon and Mothball said it should be holding a Banana and swinging from a tree? why did I reply to Neurotik’s remark as I did? I was trying to make light of the situation. I replied to the stereotype with a stereotype. And to be fair, its a bit deserved. Every year we give free reign for people to be Irish and get pissed. And we have St. Patricks Day too 🙂 the problem is intent. I saw what his intent behind the remark was. As I said over and over in the CESM thread, its not the words, its the intent. Sorry if I prented what appears to be a double standard, and I hope it cleared it up for you. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792/117 "2003-02-07T11:57:37Z")
presented, even. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792/118 "2003-02-07T20:06:04Z")
Ignorant, sorry. Anyway, I didn’t read that remark as being about hygiene. I’m pretty clean, and I don’t shave my pits. ('Course, I’m a guy, so it’s a little different…) Saying French women don’t shave their underarms doesn’t imply a value judgement to me. I read it the same way you read **Neurotik** ’s Irish joke: an attempt to lighten the mood. Like you said, it all comes down to intent, and I just don’t see a malicious intent behind most French jokes. I think it’s interesting that you can take jokes about your own people more easily than jokes about someone else’s people. I also think it’s interesting that, so far as I know, no actual French people have had a problem with this thread or the Surrender Monkey thread. Not sure if that means anything, justs seems odd. ---
**Author:** ![Marine\_One](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marine_one/32/3461_2.png) [@Marine\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marine_One)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792/119 "2003-02-07T20:51:52Z")
France, join us now or you’ll never see Jerry Lewis again! ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792/120 "2003-02-07T21:10:31Z")
WOW, I was just blowing off a little steam when I heard that the French once again have snubbed us and then I see that this is the longest thread I started. I was going to start a thread on what makes a thread last a long time (and hence getting lots of posts). Actually even though this was my longest one, I still don’t really know what makes a thread long. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-france/152792.md?page=7)