# "Screw the twins" - I can't have a scar **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 11, 2004, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783 "2004-03-11T22:41:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/41 "2004-03-12T03:00:12Z")
I guess the only bright side is that this will make women more reluctant to seek medical advice, due to the fact that they might be forced to follow any advice they receive. Wait… that’s not a good thing… ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/42 "2004-03-12T03:04:03Z")
Ah, but you see, there are people who want to prosecute mothers-to-be who DON’T get prenatal care, so it’s a viscious cycle. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/43 "2004-03-12T03:22:13Z")
> [@beagledave](#): > > I read the story as “Once again she left and refused treatment after warnings that her babies are in danger.” > > Sh was told, several times, that her babies were in critical danger and needed treatment. She refused treatment. Christ, Dave, we AGREE on that. I was specifically speaking to the point that she might have been acting based on her misconceptions and fears about what a c-section meant for HER, not for her twins. Now, that’s offensive to a lot of us, sure. But my point remains that although the hospitals might have made it crystal clear her babies were at risk without the c-section, who knows if they did anything to clear up her whacked-out beliefs about the procedure? That’s all I was saying. I’m not keen on what she did, but it’s credible to me that she was more crazy, ignorant, and scared than she was actually worried about how she’d look in a bathing suit in the future. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/44 "2004-03-12T03:39:25Z")
> [@](#): > > **Zabali\_Clawbane** said: > She didn’t realize that a C-section involved ONLY a cut from about hip bone to hip bone. She thought she’d be cut “from stem to stern”, which is a dangerous prospect. Doesn’t that depend on what kind of C-section the doctors were talking about? If for some reason the doctors were talking about needing to do a classical caesarian section, then she would be cut ‘from stem to stern’. If they’re talking about a T-incision cesarian section, then she’d still have a very, very nasty scar and would be (at least according to the info I could find) unable to ever deliver vaginally after that. Maybe she wasn’t as misinformed as the media is reporting. Maybe they’re just glossing over those ‘mundane’ details of exactly what kind of operation this woman would’ve faced because they know it won’t get the same attention if they print all the facts? ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/45 "2004-03-12T04:02:00Z")
**catsix** Maybe. That’s the point though. I know the Ob. Gyn. who did my hysterectomy told me he used a similar method on C-sections. I have a straight scar, going from hip bone to hip bone, it stops just short of being on top of my hip bones. I was led to believe this is the most frequently used incision for a C-section, and that only in RARE cases is a different incision used, such as in maybe an extreme emergency, where the babies have to be rescued NOW. (Even in “emergeny” C-sections that are during labor, the Obs don’t use the “stem to stern” breastbone to pubic bone cut.) According to [this article](http://my.webmd.com/hw/being_pregnant/tn8163.asp) though, I can see that they don’t appear to use the “stem to stern” cut at all. The whole point is, just exactly how much knowledge did this woman have about the procedure she needed? Why the heck is the DA chalking it up solely to “cosmetic” reasons? Did she fully understand what the procudure needed was? Was she ignorant on the methods used to carry out a C-section in her case? If there is a precedent set with this case, it will be able to be used against other expectant mothers, who may have very valid medical reasons for refusing “on the spot” surgery. I don’t like the trend that could take at all. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/46 "2004-03-12T04:05:27Z")
Maybe the DA’s got a political motivation for it? If you can bust a woman for not having a C-section, then bust her for not having sonograms, and so on? It could be a lot of things, and quite frankly the term C-section isn’t enough to tell me exactly what kind of operation they wanted to do, what risks were involved, what possible benefits, and whether this woman understood them. And even if she didn’t, do we _really_ want to open the can of worms in which a person does not have the final authority to refuse a medical procedure? ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/47 "2004-03-12T04:08:13Z")
**catsix** Exactly. (Pssst, read the link I put in my previous post.) ---
**Author:** ![mischievous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mischievous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mischievous)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/48 "2004-03-12T04:56:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Because she’s female. Only males are hemophiliacs. (There have been two or three cases in documented history of female hemophiliacs who died when they reached puberty and began menstruating, or so I’ve heard). **Guinastasia** , I’m pretty sure that’s not true. The most common forms of hemophilia are X-linked, which would mean that a woman would need to have two bad copies of the gene as opposed to one. This would be rare, but not _that_ rare. Also, there are some less-common forms of hemophilia which are not X-linked, and therefore should be equally common in males and females. As I understand it, women with hemophilia take blood transfusions (just like men) to keep menstruation from turning lethal. Also, I think some of them go on depo-provera or similar hormone treatments which halt menstruation entirely. I’ll try and do a real search later tonight. In the meantime, can one of the MD’s on the board comment? mischievous ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/49 "2004-03-12T05:01:20Z")
The way I see it, is this. Maybe she was vain. Maybe she knew exactly what the procedure would be, and really just didn’t want the scar. Maybe she felt that (for whatever reason) her looks WERE more important than the life of one of the twins (she still has another baby anyways!) All of this is, IMHO, morally reprehensible. Those motives are wrong, but NONE OF THAT MATTERS. What matters, is that she was faced with having to undergo a surgical procedure (routine? people still die from it) to save the life of a baby (born or unborn - it was to save a life). Are we seriously saying that people should HAVE TO, by LAW, undergo surgeries to save other people’s lives if all evidence shows that we would survive the surgery? Because that’s what this case will be saying. What next? Place everyone on kidney donation lists - you only need one, and it could save someone’s life! Bone marrow, even partial live liver donations? I’m all for organ donations, but should we really make it a legal REQUIREMENT? Since when do we have to justify our reasons to accept or refuse medical treatment? Maybe she was vain, maybe she knew exactly what was happening, maybe she didn’t. But the fact is, she had the right to choose whether she should go under the knife or not. When she refused a C-section, why not consider other options? Induce labour, perhaps? A murder charge is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/50 "2004-03-12T05:06:45Z")
How do we even know that both babies would have been fine if she had them 19 days earlier? For all we know, they could have both ended up dead or had other problems. I still don’t think we should be tying people down and performing possibly deadly surgery on them against their will. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/51 "2004-03-12T05:40:07Z")
> [@mischievous](#): > > **Guinastasia** , I’m pretty sure that’s not true. The most common forms of hemophilia are X-linked, which would mean that a woman would need to have two bad copies of the gene as opposed to one. This would be rare, but not _that_ rare. Also, there are some less-common forms of hemophilia which are not X-linked, and therefore should be equally common in males and females. > > As I understand it, women with hemophilia take blood transfusions (just like men) to keep menstruation from turning lethal. Also, I think some of them go on depo-provera or similar hormone treatments which halt menstruation entirely. > > I’ll try and do a real search later tonight. In the meantime, can one of the MD’s on the board comment? > > mischievous Really? I didn’t know that. I would be interested to hear more about this as well. (The cases I read about were before transfusions, and even then were only mentioned briefly) Back on topic-why didn’t the nurse SAY something, when the woman expressed her fears? What I don’t understand-if they’re going to prosecute her for not getting the surgery, why did they even bother getting her consent? Why not just strap her down and force it on her? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/52 "2004-03-12T05:40:52Z")
She is the mother of a newborn baby, who has just suffered the tragic loss of another newborn. Maybe or maybe not because of fear/vanity/ignorance. Either way, it is her right to have the medical treatment she wants. There is no guarantee for any type of birth that every party will survive. There are just risks, and likelihoods, possibilities, and probabilities. She hasn’t killed a child, she hasn’t made a child suffer, she hasn’t abused a child. She chose not to have a medical procedure that may or may not have been able to increase the survival chances of her second baby. So instead of letting her go home and look after her newborn, and make the best of a rather sad time, she’ll be hauled through the courts and flung in jail? (Or executed?) How totally, utterly disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/53 "2004-03-12T05:50:10Z")
> [@istara](#): > > So instead of letting her go home and look after her newborn, and make the best of a rather sad time I have a hard time believing that she is overwhelmed with grief over that dead baby. Seriously. I have a hard time believing that. I could be really wrong, but that’s my gut feeling. Any woman who will say how she’d rather have the babies die than do this, or do that (like go to particular hospitals)—she doesn’t sound like she’s overflowing with motherly love. But I could be wrong. But the fact is, none of us have much information. This whole thread is full of speculation. I am a little suprised that she was charged with murder. More than a little suprised. But I have a feeling that the DA must have some pretty damning evidence to make those charges. (I could be wrong.) I also have a hard time believing that this woman told the nurse about the “stem to stern” concept and the nurse _wouldn’t_ at the point piped up and said, “It’s not like that.” I don’t know what happened really (none of us do) but I **really REALLY** have a hard time believing that _at least_ the nurse corrected this woman. It seems pretty inconcievable to me to think that the nurse would stay mum after hearing such bullshit. But I suppose it’s possible that no one told this woman anything. Highly doubtful, but possible. ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/54 "2004-03-12T05:53:43Z")
Ok, I’ve had it. there are just somethings in my mind that are unexcuseable and this is one of them. There are no two ways about this, it’s a binary argument and I know which way I’d go, and if any parent feels differently, I’d like to hear from you. I’m a father not a mother but if the choice was between me, and my child; my child lives, it’s as simple as that. You guys can go on and subscribe whatever pure motives to this scumbag that you want, but I’m buying it. She was told on no less than 3 occasions that her children were in danger of dying; fuck her if she couldn’t make the right decision. I’ll ask you this though, how many of you would be comfortable demonstrating a situation where you’d let your child die to avoid a scar or a potential death sentence. In my mind there is no difference, if you’re not willing to give up your life for your child (to me the basic definition of parenthood) then you don’t even deserve the title. I fought court battles for years just to prove that I was better able to care for my children, than their drug addicted, bed hopping mother. I’ll be damned if I’ll compromise my morals for the sake od seeming politically coorect. This woman was wrong. Whether the medical staff had any part in her making the wrong decision is besides the point. She was still as wrong as two left shoes. ---
**Author:** ![Morrigoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/858c86/32.png) [@Morrigoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morrigoon)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/55 "2004-03-12T06:10:59Z")
I’m not remotely suggesting she wasn’t wrong. Of course she was wrong, stupid, and more than a little selfish. However, I had to question my own position (originally supporting the arrest) because of what another Doper had pointed out: by allowing her to be charged/convicted of murder for refusing to undergo a medical procedure on her own body, we risk giving the government the power to determine what is done on our own bodies. No one has the right to force me to go under anaesthesia (which carries its own death risk) and be cut without my permission. That said, the woman is still a stupid asshat who should rot in hell for her selfishness. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/56 "2004-03-12T06:22:35Z")
Why is it NOT okay for her to refuse a c-section after being warned her babies were in trouble, but it would have been her (sacred American) right to go have an abortion clinic kill both of them? Make up your minds, people. Either mothers have the right to kill their unborn babies, or they don’t. Why, suddenly, does it matter how and why the baby ends up dead? So she didn’t want a scar. How is this different from, say, a stripper who ends a pregnancy because she doesn’t want to get fat and not be able to work? ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/57 "2004-03-12T06:26:11Z")
Also, think of what other posters including myself have put forth as to the path such a precedent can take. “Enforced organ donation, because YOUR kidney will save a helpless child’s life” “Enforced C-sections no matter what, no excuses accepted” and on and on. Where is the line drawn with this? It opens the door too wide for my comfort. ---
**Author:** ![Morrigoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/858c86/32.png) [@Morrigoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morrigoon)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/58 "2004-03-12T06:27:11Z")
Because she carried them to term or significantly close enough to that date that one of the babies survived birth? If you’re gonna abort, do it before the third trimester. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/59 "2004-03-12T06:35:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Because she carried them to term or significantly close enough to that date that one of the babies survived birth? True. And if she had a C-section 19 days earlier as the doctor suggested, there is no guarantee _either_ baby would have survived. I just thought of another problem - if she is convicted for this, that means people are forced to take their doctor’s advice as the word of God. Disagree with your doctor? Not your right. Go to jail. By the way, the doctor said both babies would probably die, but they didn’t. What do we tell the woman who we knock out, strap down, and cut open against her will, and then the babies both die, when one could have survived if we let nature run its course? Also, there is an obvious difference between an abortion, and letting a pregnancy run its natural course. Can anyone guess what it is? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/60 "2004-03-12T07:00:36Z")
**Stuffy** , if people were held criminally liable every time they were morally wrong, people would have to do time for bad-mouthing their children’s mother. No matter _how_ nasty a parent is, it is **bad** for the child for the custodial parent to harbor such festering contempt. Give your life for your child? How about giving them a leg up on self-respect by not loathing the other half of their DNA? By the way, I fully support equal consideration for fathers in custodial procedures. My father was also the only good source of parenting that I had. Does anyone else find the expressions “stem to stern” and “breast bone to pubic bone” a little suspicious? Those are not the expressions of a really _ignorant_ person. I doubt that those were the actual words of the mother. On the surface, the mother’s behavior appears to be unfathomable. So are the charges filed by the D.A. I would think that the charges will quickly be thrown out. I would think that most pro-choice supporters remain pro-choice on this issue: Even if it turns out that her motive was entirely vain and selfish, the choice on how she delivered her babies was hers to make. Are there any pro choice supporters who disagree? Are there any pro life supporters who also believe that the choice, in this case, should remain fully hers? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783.md?page=4)