# "Screw the twins" - I can't have a scar **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 11, 2004, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783 "2004-03-11T22:41:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/81 "2004-03-12T15:35:11Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > **beagledave** Did you read the links I posted on the Pennslyvania case? Yes I read your links. Yes I understood the point you were making. Perhaps you missed mine…so I’ll recap. Several folks earlier claimed the Utah DA had no **legal** basis to bring the charges he did…suggesting he doesn’t know the law of his own state. I provided a link pointing out that “In January, the state Supreme Court ruled that unborn children at all stages of development are covered under the state’s criminal homicide statute. The law exempts the death of a fetus during an abortion.”. Perhaps you don’t agree with the court’s ruling. Groovy. Perhaps you think the law should be changed. Groovy. It doesn’t really matter as pertains to my initial point that the DA **was** acting according to (I guess at least his understanding of) Utah law. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/82 "2004-03-12T15:43:57Z")
Not good, not good at all. Erode the rght of a competent adult to preserve their autonomy in one situation, you do it in others. Her body, her choice. If she’s competent to make the decision, decision respected. No exceptions, no exclusions. Otherwise you’ll have siblings and parents forced to donate organs, terminally ill forced to have treatment and on and on and on. No thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/83 "2004-03-12T15:48:34Z")
Ok, fair enough, **beagledave.** Now, to try to articulate what I was saying better. The DA is prosecuting based on a FLAWED law, that goes against the constitution, and that will hopefully soon be stricken down. Therefore, it’s a matter of the “individual use” parameters on the definition of the word "legal. Does the person using it mean “according to current Utah law”, or “according to the Constitution”? I, personally meant according to the Constitution. Am I making more sense now? ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/84 "2004-03-12T15:57:53Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > C-section or not, these babies don’t (didn’t) have a chance given their mother. And that’s based upon what evidence, exactly? This woman has two older children. There have been no reports that they are abused, neglected or otherwise not doing well in her care. And though I (regrettably, now) injected the Pennsylvania case, let’s take care not to conflate the two issues. In Pennsylvania, there was one judge making a decision which was questionable. In Utah, the legislature passed a law which made it a criminal act of murder for a woman to act in a way which caused the death of her unborn child and the state Supreme Court has upheld it. It’s a far deeper infringement in Utah, and it’s got the weight of statute behind and the word of the highest court affirming it. That’s a _lot_ of people who seemingly hold with the pregnant women as incubators perspective, and a huge mountain to scale for those who still hold to the idea of freedom. It’s amazing how far my fellow “conservatives” are willing to intrude upon personal liberties. Amazing in a disgusting, saddening way. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/85 "2004-03-12T17:09:24Z")
> [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](#): > > She might be mentally ill… If her attorney is to be believed, yes. > [@](#): > > [Salt Lake Tribune](http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Mar/03122004/utah/147031.asp) > Rowland, also known as Melissa Hrosik, faces up to life in prison if convicted of the first-degree felony. Her attorney, Michael Sikora, said she has been in jail since shortly after giving birth in mid-January on a child endangerment charge involving the surviving twin, a girl who has been adopted. > Sikora, a public defender, said Rowland has a long history of mental illness and was first committed to a hospital at age 12. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/86 "2004-03-12T17:24:22Z")
> [@TeaElle](#): > > And that’s based upon what evidence, exactly? This woman has two older children. There have been no reports that they are abused, neglected or otherwise not doing well in her care. [Desert Morning News](http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595048573,00.html): > [@](#): > > Rowland said she has two other children who live with their grandparents in Virginia. She also said the surviving twin, a girl, has been adopted by a family Rowland knows. “She’s safe and well taken care of.” ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/87 "2004-03-12T17:26:35Z")
I want to know how did the ‘authorities’ get involved in this to begin with? I can see the hospital giving the woman all sorts of warnings and even getting her to sign things that indicated she knew the possible outcomes. The hospital was just covering their ass, not to difficult to understand in an age where malpractice suits are common. But at what point did the police and/or the DA get involved? ---
**Author:** ![sperfur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9adbd/32.png) [@sperfur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sperfur)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/88 "2004-03-12T17:41:56Z")
Reading through this thread, I’ve seen the barest mention that this woman went to several different places _in search of a different solution_. That doesn’t strike me as someone who didn’t care what happened to her babies. It sounds more like someone who was afraid (for whatever reason) of the only option that had been given to her and was desperately seeking an alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Amberlei](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@Amberlei](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amberlei)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/89 "2004-03-12T22:15:57Z")
> **[Utah Mom Had Child Endangerment Drug Charge](http://thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/utah-mom-had-child-endangerment-drug-charge)** > > MARCH 12--The Utah woman charged with killing her unborn fetus by refusing an emergency Caesarean section took drugs during her pregnancy and was smoking cigarettes minutes before giving birth, The Sm Here’s a copy of the police report used to file the charges. Perhaps it will help put things into perspective. None of the news stories I’ve read have mentioned the drug usage or her complete uncooperativeness. Also, many of them state that Hanna was delivered vaginally, but both babies were in fact delivered by C-section. When I first heard of the case, I had some doubts as to the ethics of charging her with child endangerment. In light of the facts presented in the police report, I no longer have any. I personally feel that every expectant mother who exposes her unborn infant to cocaine should be charged with child endangerment, and feel that the surgery, while presented by the press as the main reason for the charges being filed, was in fact, secondary. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/90 "2004-03-12T22:45:13Z")
Coke and booze. Shit. String the fucking bitch up! ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/91 "2004-03-12T23:01:13Z")
Your charity does you credit. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/92 "2004-03-12T23:24:47Z")
Oh yeah she was just a poor uninformed woman looking for “alternatives”. Big mean hospital/doctor/nurse, treating her like an incubator and trying to save the babies and stuff…the outrage! Oh well…hope the pot and coke were good stuff… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![sperfur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9adbd/32.png) [@sperfur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sperfur)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/93 "2004-03-12T23:28:49Z")
Well, the smoking gun story paints a completely different picture, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2004, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/94 "2004-03-12T23:59:16Z")
> [@beagledave](#): > > Oh yeah she was just a poor uninformed woman looking for “alternatives”. > Big mean hospital/doctor/nurse, treating her like an incubator and trying to save the babies and stuff…the outrage! > > Oh well…hope the pot and coke were good stuff… > > :rolleyes: ’ You can roll your eyes all you like but it doesn’t change the fact that it is seriously wrong (morally) to force someone to undertake a medical procedure. The circumstances are irrelevant. You must remember that the natural course of events is for the mother to have a natural birth. A C-section is an intervention and the mother should have every right to refuse it. ---
**Author:** ![Violin\_D\_Ingrate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/898d66/32.png) [@Violin\_D\_Ingrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Violin_D_Ingrate)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/95 "2004-03-13T00:58:40Z")
> [@Ilsa\_Lund](#): > > Did anyone else think this was going to be about a vasectomy? :eek: Yes. That’s exactly what I thought!! ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/96 "2004-03-13T01:02:01Z")
From the AP story: “A woman accused of murder because she allegedly avoided a Caesarean section that could have saved her unborn twin has denied the charge, **saying she already had scars from earlier C-sections**.” (bolding mine) Whatever reason this woman had for refusing the C-section, she was NOT completely ignorant of what the procedure entails. She may indeed be mentally ill, but I find it difficult to believe that she willfully caused the death of her baby - because when she began suspected trouble around Christmas, she sought help. I only know what I’ve read about this case, but there are other children who have been fostered out, and the surviving twin has been adopted. This murder charge was filed after this woman was already in jail for endangering the surviving infant. Why were murder charges filed now, three months after her delivery? ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/97 "2004-03-13T01:07:02Z")
So… we’re supposed to feel like dupes for choosing to take the high road? Some of us made the wrong call. Bummer; it’s nicer to be right, but hey, we had to make some guesses, you can’t always score 100%. We didn’t have full information, some posters chose to give her the benefit of the doubt until more info came in. Doing so gave all a chance to explore the issues raised by the case, issues which don’t go away even if it turns out the mom is an asshole. So if we can stop cackling with glee for a minute here, gimme some guidance: am I supposed to feel bad because I’m not psychic, or am I supposed to feel bad because I’m some kind of Pollyanna? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/98 "2004-03-13T01:42:11Z")
> [@LifeOnWry](#): > > Why were murder charges filed now, three months after her delivery? WAG…well the woman DID visit three hospitals, several nurse, several doctors…plus drug screens…and then there is finding out the status of her current offspring. Also…she is probably not an immediate threat to the rest of the citizens of the town… Are we now criticizing the DA for taking time to check out all the facts? ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/99 "2004-03-13T01:43:36Z")
> [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](#): > > or am I supposed to feel bad because I’m some kind of Pollyanna? 😃 You’re supposed to feel bad because your fucking Wolverines beat my pathetic Hawkeyes today. ---
**Author:** ![netscape\_6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8c91f0/32.png) [@netscape\_6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/netscape_6)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/100 "2004-03-13T01:59:13Z")
> [@1920s Style Death Ray](#): > > ’ > > You can roll your eyes all you like but it doesn’t change the fact that it is seriously wrong (morally) to force someone to undertake a medical procedure. The circumstances are irrelevant. I’m sorry but all morals are based on unprovable axioms. By definition all morals are opinions. That does not neccesarily mean you should’nt fight what you consider wrong. I think it’s wrong to claim your opinion is fact, and I am confronting you on this, for example. I am not disputing your post in any other way. I just have a pet peeve about people claiming there opinions to be fact. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783.md?page=6)