# "Screw the twins" - I can't have a scar **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 11, 2004, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783 "2004-03-11T22:41:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/101 "2004-03-13T02:54:01Z")
> [@beagledave](#): > > WAG…well the woman DID visit three hospitals, several nurse, several doctors…plus drug screens…and then there is finding out the status of her current offspring. > > Also…she is probably not an immediate threat to the rest of the citizens of the town… > > Are we now criticizing the DA for taking time to check out all the facts? Certainly not. But if you think a murder is committed, you wait to see if anyone else associated with the alleged murderer has been harmed? That doesn’t make any sense. When you find out she hasn’t been taking care of her other children, you say, “Ooh. She must have meant to kill this one?” They say this woman is mentally ill, but apparently they thought she was lucid enough to sign a statement saying that she understood her refusal of surgery could mean her babies would die. Got news for you - if they prove she is indeed mentally ill, they can probably prove she was not competent enough to sign that paper. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/102 "2004-03-13T03:31:50Z")
> [@LifeOnWry](#): > > They say this woman is mentally ill, but apparently they thought she was lucid enough to sign a statement saying that she understood her refusal of surgery could mean her babies would die. Say WHHHHHAAAT? The **first** “they” in your statement is her **lawyer** who has made claims about her menatl problems AFTER she was charged. The **second** “they” in your statement are nurses and doctors at hospitals who encountered her weeks before her lawyers claim… Why you are suggesting that the two "they"s are the same is beyond me. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/103 "2004-03-13T03:33:50Z")
For the sake of fighting ignorance, I just want to add that vaginal births after caesarians are becoming more common. From [this](http://www.childbirth.org/section/VBACFAQ.html) site: > [@](#): > > Vaginal Birth After Cesarean (VBAC) is becoming more and more common. The once true adage of “Once a cesarean{sic}, always a cesarean{sic}” has been discarded. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/104 "2004-03-13T03:47:32Z")
From the article linked in the OP: > [@](#): > > The law has been used to prosecute women who kill or seriously harm their babies through drug use; it has never been used because a woman failed to follow her doctor’s advice This very strongly implies that the woman did not use drugs. Apparently she did, but the article from the OP is incredibly misleading. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/105 "2004-03-13T03:58:11Z")
Drug use notwithstanding, the spokesman for the DA himself announced that part of the reason for the charges against the woman was because > [@](#): > > “We are unable to find any reason other than the cosmetic motivations” for the mother’s decision, said Kent Morgan, spokesman for the district attorney so my point of contention is not moot. > [@](#): > > “Even if you think the fetus is a person, in America we don’t allow the courts to decide between two people and order one to undergo surgery for the other,” said Lynn Paltrow, an attorney with the National Advocates for Pregnant Women in New York. from [this](http://www.amptoons.com/blog/001197.html) site articulates the point some of us are trying to make. If this prosecution is successful, it opens the door to new laws, ones that regard the woman not as an individual with the rights to choose what happens to her body, but as an “incubator”, and worse, soon it will be “all women of fertile age MUST NOT do anything that could risk any baby they might possibly be carrying”. (say 9 to 50? for the fluke births) I am SO glad I had a hysterectomy now, it gives me an “out”. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/106 "2004-03-13T04:06:30Z")
> [@mischievous](#): > > **Guinastasia** , I’m pretty sure that’s not true. The most common forms of hemophilia are X-linked, which would mean that a woman would need to have two bad copies of the gene as opposed to one. This would be rare, but not _that_ rare. Yes, actually it’s _that rare_. Prior to the 20th Century it was exceedingly rare for any hemophilliac to survive childhood, and I don’t think any managed to reproduce. So while there were female carriers, there were no reproducing males to supply the second defective X. Only with the discovery of Factor VIII and it’s mass-production have we had male hemophilliacs survive to adulthood and be able to reproduce - only a generation or two. And during a time when tests can be done to detemrine suspetibility to hemophillia prior to birth. So only a very, very few female hemophilliacs have ever been born. > [@](#): > > Also, there are some less-common forms of hemophilia which are not X-linked, and therefore should be equally common in males and females. Classicial hemophillia is sex-linked. There ARE other clotting disorders, but they’re not what folks usually mean by “hemophillia” > [@](#): > > As I understand it, women with hemophilia take blood transfusions (just like men) to keep menstruation from turning lethal. Good lord! Transfusions haven’t been used as a “treatment” for hemophillia for at least a couple decades! No - they use injections of the missing/defective clotting factor that is causing the problem. > [@](#): > > Also, I think some of them go on depo-provera or similar hormone treatments which halt menstruation entirely. More like a complete hysterectomy - hormonal treatments may prevent babies, but they don’t always prevent spotting, which in someone with a clotting disorder can lead to a slow death. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/107 "2004-03-13T04:18:50Z")
> [@beagledave](#): > > You’re supposed to feel bad because your fucking Wolverines beat my pathetic Hawkeyes today. I was in an auditorium full of people watching a presentation this afternoon and the guy running the demo stopped the whole thing for a moment to click over to ESPN to get the score. At that point (it was early) we were down. Then I sort of forgot about the thing. Just go savor your football victories. Mary Sue Coleman probably feels bad too. A Little. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/108 "2004-03-13T05:45:44Z")
> [@netscape 6](#): > > I’m sorry but all morals are based on unprovable axioms. By definition all morals are opinions. That does not neccesarily mean you should’nt fight what you consider wrong. I think it’s wrong to claim your opinion is fact, and I am confronting you on this, for example. I am not disputing your post in any other way. I just have a pet peeve about people claiming there opinions to be fact. Yes, fair point. I think morals are more than just opinions, they reflect the majority opinion and so they have a little more strength than one person’s opinion. However, I won’t debate that issue any further, but rather, reword my post: You can roll your eyes all you like [**beagledave**] but it doesn’t change the very serious implications for society from forcing someone to undergo a medical procedure against their will. I very strongly dissagree with it and I find it difficult to see how other people can agree to it. I will repeat that I find her decision to be a bad one based on the information provided. But i believe that murder charges are completely unjustified. Coming back to the issue of morals. **Netscape 6** , are you an American and if so, how do you view your country’s “rights”? Are they merely a reflection of the majority opinion in the same way that morals are, or are they somehow more concrete? If so, why? ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/109 "2004-03-13T06:20:10Z")
What’s all this talk about morals? I had 2 c-sections to bring my children into this world. She’s clearly a seriously disturbed woman. I’m surprised this topic warrants any comment. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/110 "2004-03-13T06:42:34Z")
**Blonde** Surely you can see that this topic warrants comment because if this (seriously disturbed, morally reprehensible individual) is prosecuted with success, than it has far reaching affects that can touch you? You do know, that more and more women are giving vaginal birth, even AFTER a C-section, right? What if the right to refuse (and get a second opinion) that C-section that one single, human, falliable doctor says is needed, gets taken away, much to your detriment, and the baby’s detriment? Do you really think it’s ok, for the government to be able to FORCE a person, (pregnant or not) to have a surgical procedure done because “it can save a life”? Don’t you see how that can be used in many other not good ways? It’s a trend that must NOT be allowed to gain momentum. That is what all the comment is about. The differences between veiwing a person as an individual, with the right to choose what happens to their body, or veiwing a pregnant woman as an “incubator” who does not have more priority than her unborn child, who has less rights and can be forced to have procedures she doesn’t want “for the good of the unborn child”. Read all of this thread, part of the debate on this matter covers the thought that “forced organ donations” could arise from this. (Not to mention the outlawing of ALL abortions, no matter what. Diabetic? In a coma? Only 2 months pregnant, and need an abortion to have a better chance to live? Too bad, that baby has more rights to live, and we’ll risk you dying to keep it alive.") It could go “Pregnant woman = incubator, unborn baby has more rights --\> Baby is in distress, so MAKE the mother have surgery to “save a life” --\> sick person needs a kidney, one of their relatives is a match but doesn’t want to go through surgery --\> MAKING their relative donate said kidney to save a life” Hell, why stop at only a relative? Why not just screen everyone, to see if they are a match, and if so take what the other person needs “to save a lift”? Where is the line drawn? As it stands, the way the Constitution is written/enacted gives a person the right to choose whether or not they want to have a medical procedure done. People have the right to bleed to death from a car wreck rather than have a medical procedure. This is the exact opposite of what this prosecution (if the DA wins) will bring about, they are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Do you see what the uproar is about now? ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/111 "2004-03-13T06:51:33Z")
Er, yeah, I have always understood the concept, but thanks for the elaboration there. VBAC is common, I understand that. But why on earth would anyone dispute or ignore a doctor’s advice that c-section was necessary? You’re taking this a few steps too far, my friend. We’re just talking about a deranged woman who made the wrong choice. I seriously doubt this single tragic death will have any impact other than to make women/doctors more aware that in some cases, c-sections are absolutely necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/112 "2004-03-13T06:59:11Z")
**Blonde** Read this entire thread, including the links in it. This is the second case touching on this matter. They are PROSECUTING THIS STUIPID WOMAN WHO MADE A WRONG DECISION FOR MUDER! Thereby taking away a woman’s right to refuse to have a C-section out of the fear that if the baby(s) die, she will be prosecuted for murder. If that part is successful, than it dominoes from there. Already, a Pennsylvania hospital was granted guardianship of an UNBORN child, and a court order saying that if the “carrier” of the child came back to the hospital, than she would be MADE to have a C-section, and would have no legal right to refuse! Well, that woman “escaped” to another hospital, and gave birth to an 11 pound 9 oz baby (not 13 pounds as the other hospital said) vaginally, with no complications. There is currently a lawsuit over this hospital’s action, to prevent it from becoming a precedent. This woman’s murder charge is a branch close to the this case’s “tree trunk” if you will. It’s linked in this thread, read it and then see why people are up in arms over this. ---
**Author:** ![Blonde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Blonde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blonde)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/113 "2004-03-13T07:15:37Z")
> [@Zabali\_Clawbane](#): > > **Blonde** Read this entire thread, including the links in it. This is the second case touching on this matter. They are PROSECUTING THIS STUIPID WOMAN WHO MADE A WRONG DECISION FOR MUDER! Thereby taking away a woman’s right to refuse to have a C-section out of the fear that if the baby(s) die, she will be prosecuted for murder. If that part is successful, than it dominoes from there. > > Already, a Pennsylvania hospital was granted guardianship of an UNBORN child, and a court order saying that if the “carrier” of the child came back to the hospital, than she would be MADE to have a C-section, and would have no legal right to refuse! Well, that woman “escaped” to another hospital, and gave birth to an 11 pound 9 oz baby (not 13 pounds as the other hospital said) vaginally, with no complications. There is currently a lawsuit over this hospital’s action, to prevent it from becoming a precedent. This woman’s murder charge is a branch close to the this case’s “tree trunk” if you will. It’s linked in this thread, read it and then see why people are up in arms over this. I don’t have any problem with forcing a woman to have a c-section if it would save the life of the child. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/114 "2004-03-13T07:42:21Z")
**Blonde** The doctors at the hospital in Pennsylvania thought the woman was “gravely endangering” her baby, because she’d had large babies before, this one was large, and she’d had troubles in child birth. Yet, this woman gave VAGINAL birth, with NO complications! It’s an inexact science, therefore, FORCING a person to have surgery is not only against the constitution, but not necessarily a “cure all” solution either. That’s all I have to say on this matter here in this thread. Go to [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4636729#post4636729) for more of my thoughts on your words in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/115 "2004-03-13T07:55:53Z")
> [@](#): > > **beagledave** : this is really about the “right” of the woman to do or not do any action she desires that might threaten the life of the twins. > [@](#): > > **Blonde** : I don’t have any problem with forcing a woman to have a c-section if it would save the life of the child. **Blonde** and **beagledave** , I have a serious question to ask you and I would value an honest reply. The three of us can agree that saving the life of another human being is worth putting ourselves into a little jeopardy. I truly believe that if we had been in the same circumstances, we would not have hesitated to have that C-section even if there were more than a little risk involved. Have either of you donated a kidney? Are either of you participants in a bone marrow registration program? If the answer is _no_ to either or both of these questions, why are you not acting to save a life? Any doctor will tell you that there is a waiting list of lives to be saved. (And if the answer is _no_, I still do not mean that as personal criticism of you. I just hoped you might see the irony of setting standards for others that we do not meet ourselves.) If the answer is _yes_, I admire your courage. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/116 "2004-03-13T08:17:04Z")
> [@Blonde](#): > > I don’t have any problem with forcing a woman to have a c-section if it would save the life of the child. What about forcing someone to donate a kidney? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/117 "2004-03-13T08:27:22Z")
This is an intriguing radio interview with the mother who gave birth in Utah: [http://radio.ksl.com/index.php?sid=80683&nid=19](http://radio.ksl.com/index.php?sid=80683&nid=19) > [@](#): > > **Blonde** : But why on earth would anyone dispute or ignore a doctor’s advice that c-section was necessary? I don’t think this reason applies in this particular case, but there has been a lot of bad press in recent years indicating that C-sections are too often performed unnecessarily and for the convenience of the doctor. (I do not intend for that to be taken as a generalization about OB’s. Doctors can give you medical _advice_. You must accept responsibility for making informed medical _decisions_ relating to your body. Only the worst doctors will claim that they always know what is best for all concerned. One doctor told me that the pain in my side was caused by nerves. Another doctor discovered that instead, I had what was then called Stein-Leventhal Syndrome. Another attack of “nerves” produced about 200 small gallstones. The baby that was due thirty years ago never existed at all – an understandable misdiagnosis. The “harmless nothing” under my eye (according to my former dermatologist) fell under the scrutiny (just by accident) of a dermatologist from another city. It was a carcinoma. I have great respect for the medical profession and adore my physicians. But I have chosen them carefully and they also listen to _me_. ---
**Author:** ![netscape\_6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8c91f0/32.png) [@netscape\_6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/netscape_6)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/118 "2004-03-13T08:57:39Z")
> [@1920s Style Death Ray](#): > > Coming back to the issue of morals. **Netscape 6** , are you an American and if so, how do you view your country’s “rights”? Are they merely a reflection of the majority opinion in the same way that morals are, or are they somehow more concrete? If so, why? Yes I am an American. Ideally I feel rights should be a reflection of the desiers of the majority. I feel this because one of my strongest political beliefs is the goverment should be a servent of the governed. I also believe some rights need alot more consideration before tampering with them. The Bill of Rights on our Constitution is the best example. This has put me in the position of not liking guns all that much but being progun because of the Second Amendment. Some rights I consider more important then my own life. This is one of those things I think about alot. Usually When I’m driving. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/119 "2004-03-13T11:09:30Z")
That seems to be a very sensible and considered outlook. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2004, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783/120 "2004-03-13T12:39:26Z")
Look, folks, over in GD, we’ve got people arguing that the earth was created in 6 days 6,000 years ago, the English settled North America before the Spanish and American Indians don’t count as settling it, and that the Revelation of St. John in the Bible should be taken as literally predicting Armageddon within the near future, and this is in the most intellectually rigorous forum of a website dedicated to fighting ignorance. In light of that, is it so difficult to accept that this woman could also willfully misinform herself to the point where it results in the death of her unborn child? Yes, it’s tragic. Yes, it’s stupid. Tragedy and stupidity are all too common, I’m afraid. CJ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screw-the-twins-i-cant-have-a-scar/233783.md?page=7)