# Screwdrivers **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 11, 2006, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198 "2006-04-11T05:47:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198/1 "2006-04-11T05:47:14Z")
I realize that there are many different types of screwdrivers (and their corresponding screws), but the two types that most people use are standard (slotted) and phillips. We all know the frustration of a standard screwdriver slipping out of the groove, something that isn’t as easily done with a phillips. So why do so many things still have standard screws in them? Why haven’t they become obsolete? Is there any usage in which a standard is preferable to a phillips? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198/2 "2006-04-11T06:24:19Z")
You can generally put a lot more torque on a straight screwhead than on a philips, as the latter will cam out under high loads. The real question is why robertson screws aren’t more popular in the US, as they’re superior to both for most applications, and are extremely common up here. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198/3 "2006-04-11T06:55:31Z")
Does the Phillips Corporation still hold the patent? ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198/4 "2006-04-11T08:12:02Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > You can generally put a lot more torque on a straight screwhead than on a philips, as the latter will cam out under high loads. The real question is why robertson screws aren’t more popular in the US, as they’re superior to both for most applications, and are extremely common up here. Robertson screws? I’ve never heard of that kind. A google search indicates that they seem to just square headed screws. Why they aren’t used more, I don’t know. I think it’s just a force of habit to use nothing but slotted (which are annoying cause they slip out more under all torques) or phillips (which are annoying because they slip out under high torques, especially if it’s the wrong size.) ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198/5 "2006-04-11T09:11:41Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > You can generally put a lot more torque on a straight screwhead than on a philips, as the latter will cam out under high loads. That’s a feature. The Phillips screw was designed for use with power tools. I like the design of the Torq-Set screw. It looks somewhat similar to the Phillips, but is much nicer to work with. ---
**Author:** ![NBYodo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a9a28c/32.png) [@NBYodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NBYodo)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198/6 "2006-04-11T09:16:46Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > Robertson screws? I’ve never heard of that kind. A google search indicates that they seem to just square headed screws. Why they aren’t used more, I don’t know. I think it’s just a force of habit to use nothing but slotted (which are annoying cause they slip out more under all torques) or phillips (which are annoying because they slip out under high torques, especially if it’s the wrong size.) Well, I heard that Mr. Robertson tried to sell the patent to Phillips, but they would give him much money, so he said fine, no robertson in the US. Also, AFAIK, Phillips are designed to pop out at high torque, sort of an automatic torquing system. If you look closely, the sides of the flukes are beveled, not straight. NB ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198/7 "2006-04-11T09:23:14Z")
> [@NBYodo](#): > > Also, AFAIK, Phillips are designed to pop out at high torque, sort of an automatic torquing system. If you look closely, the sides of the flukes are beveled, not straight. Yeah, the are designed to pop out, which results in stripped screws when one is extremely tight and hard to unscrew. :mad: Now that I think about it, I think another reason for slotted and phillips still being in use is that they are probably cheaper to manufactor than other types, especially since the facilities are already in place to do so. If more and more screws were to become square, hex, torque-set, or star headed, then it would cost lots of $$ to upgrade facilities, so I assume for that reason screw makers like to keep things the way they are. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198/8 "2006-04-11T12:17:14Z")
> [@bouv](#): > > Robertson screws? I’ve never heard of that kind. A google search indicates that they seem to just square headed screws. Why they aren’t used more, I don’t know. I think it’s just a force of habit to use nothing but slotted (which are annoying cause they slip out more under all torques) or phillips (which are annoying because they slip out under high torques, especially if it’s the wrong size.) It is hard to find Phillips head screws in Canada. The Robertson is FAR superior. It combines the non-slip feature of the Phillips with the torque of the slot head. Given the choice, I would not use anything else. I have also seen triangular head screws and my intuition is that they would have even more torque. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198/9 "2006-04-11T12:17:47Z")
The Reed & Prince head is also common. It looks like a Phillips but is more perfectly conical (the tip is sharper at the same time that the large end of the drive flutes are big), and I think the angle looks a little wider. There are enough of these that my Sears Craftsman screwdriver set has a driver for it. Certainly one reason people don’t use square drive screws more is that they are harder to find. I have to mail-order them if I want to be sure of getting them for a project - for some reason the local Home Depots and other hardware stores often don’t carry them or only carry a few sizes. How about those horrible screws with both Phillips and Slotted features? These are designed so that BOTH kinds of screwdrivers pop out of them. I like Torx or other splined recesses because as I understand it they handle the largest torques and they have no angular motivation to pop out. ---
**Author:** ![corkboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@corkboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corkboard)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198/10 "2006-04-11T12:47:50Z")
Robertsons are great, but a real pain if they get painted over. You’ll waste a lot of time gouging the paint out of the head before you’re able to unscrew it. If that bit can’t sit firmly in the hole, then you’re, well, screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Fridgemagnet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/22d042/32.png) [@Fridgemagnet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fridgemagnet)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198/11 "2006-04-11T13:26:35Z")
As a European unfamiliar with Robertson-head screws, I just had to look them up in a fit of feverish excitement. Imagine my disappointment to find out it’s just a square head. Philips-head screws aren’t really used in new designs any more (though they’re still widely available), having been superceded by the similar looking Supadrive head, which in turn has been replaced by the also-similar-looking Pozidrive head. If you use the right size bit there shouldn’t be too many problems with cam-out, and in particular, don’t use a Philips screwdriver for a Pozidrive head and vice-versa. There is a trade-off between shear-resistance of the bit and the screw head rounding off or camming out. A triangular bit will give good torque, but will be prone to shearing. A square bit will be less prone to shearing, and a hex bit will be very resistant to shearing, but more prone to cam-out. The best compromise between the two criteria I’ve found is the Torx bit, which is very resistant to both shearing and cam-out. For the record, here’s [all the popular screw heads](http://www.sizes.com/tools/screw_drive.htm). And if you’ve got a particularly stiff fastener that you don’t want to chew up, I can highly recommend a [diamond grit paste](http://www.toolshopdirect.co.uk/handtool/product/TODSG) smeared on the bit to lock it in there. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198/12 "2006-04-11T13:32:26Z")
Hex and Torx head screws get more use in applications where the screws are intended to be removed and replaced a number of times. Flatheads do get use in tiny-headed screws to allow enough ‘head’ to exist as to not overly weaken in. ---
**Author:** ![rjk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@rjk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjk)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198/13 "2006-04-11T15:19:42Z")
> [@NBYodo](#): > > Well, I heard that Mr. Robertson tried to sell the patent to Phillips, but they would give him much money, so he said fine, no robertson in the US. > > \ > NB When I was looking for Robertson screws here in Texas, one of the employees at the hardware store told me they were first marketed down here as security screws, and never caught on otherwise until people started using them for decks and other framing. The only ones they had are a Phillips/Robertson hybrid, and only in 1.5- to 3- inch lengths. ---
**Author:** ![awldune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@awldune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/awldune)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198/14 "2006-04-11T16:58:28Z")
Robertson screws are frequently used to install decking here in the US. I have never seen them in any other application. An advantage phillips and slot screwdrivers have over Robertson, Torx, Allen, etc. is that a single driver will fit many different sizes of screw. Of course, this is an excellent way to strip out the head if the if screw is attached very tightly. But on the other hand you are not carrying around a set of 20 tools. ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198/15 "2006-04-11T20:05:02Z")
Tiny screws on cosmetic pieces are usually slotted for appearances. No significant torque is applied anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2006, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198/16 "2006-04-11T20:08:05Z")
> [@NBYodo](#): > > Well, I heard that Mr. Robertson tried to sell the patent to Phillips, but they would give him much money, so he said fine, no robertson in the US. That seems rather unlikely, just based on the dates. The Robertson screw was invented in 1908, 28 years before the Phillips screw. It was already in use by big corporations, like the Ford assembly plant for many years. The Phillips screw was patented in 1936. (Actually invented by JW Thompson, businessman Henry Phillips bought the rights from him.) It replaced the Robertson screw in many cases, because many factories now used assembly lines with power tools, and the Phillips screw works better for those. (The driver slips out when overtightened, so workers can’t overtighten it and damage the product.) General Motors was a big customer for Phillips screws. Ford stayed with Robertson screws for a while, just because GM used Phillips. Mechanics of the time were annoyed by this, as it required them to have 2 sets of tools and keep supplies of 2 types of screws on hand. ---
**Author:** ![innes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@innes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/innes)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198/17 "2012-08-17T22:20:07Z")
The reason there is no Robertson Screws in the US is because of Henry Ford. As General Motors was using them, he decided he wanted to use them as well. He invited Robertson to his offices and demanded control of the patent. Robertson refused to give over his patent on this amazing screw to him. Henry then used his limitless power and influence to have the screw banned from the US marketplace. Typical. Don’t be surprised. This still goes on today. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198/18 "2012-08-17T22:27:07Z")
> [@innes](#): > > The reason there is no Robertson Screws in the US is because of Henry Ford. As General Motors was using them, he decided he wanted to use them as well. He invited Robertson to his offices and demanded control of the patent. Robertson refused to give over his patent on this amazing screw to him. Henry then used his limitless power and influence to have the screw banned from the US marketplace. Typical. Don’t be surprised. This still goes on today. Sounds like nonsense to me. How did he have them “banned”? Do you have a cite for all this? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198/19 "2012-08-17T22:55:39Z")
> [@innes](#): > > The reason there is no Robertson Screws in the US is because of Henry Ford. As General Motors was using them, he decided he wanted to use them as well. He invited Robertson to his offices and demanded control of the patent. Robertson refused to give over his patent on this amazing screw to him. Henry then used his limitless power and influence to have the screw banned from the US marketplace. Typical. Don’t be surprised. This still goes on today. Here is the [Robertson Website](http://www.robertsonscrew.com/history.html)giving the history of Robertson, the screw, and Ford. It says > [@](#): > > His third major attempt involved the Ford Motor Company. From early years of the Milton plant Ford Windsor accounted for a substantial part of Robertson’s production. By using socket head screws Ford made a considerable savings of $2.60 per car. > > This savings captured the attention of the Detroit bosses and soon after P.L was in Detroit talking about expanding socket head screw production to supply all U.S. made Ford cars. Henry Ford refused to commit to a new product line without having a say in how and where the screws would be made. P.L was not happy with this idea and headed home. This meant P.L was letting go of vast potential in the U.S. market, this also included Ford Windsor which accounted for one third of his output of screws. So Ford was already using Robertson’s screw, wanted a say in where and how the screws would be made, but nothing about controlling the patent. Robertson declined the terms. It doesn’t say anything about being banned from the US marketplace. I think that website would be a fairly good source of information about this topic. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198/20 "2012-08-17T23:03:04Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Sounds like nonsense to me. How did he have them “banned”? Do you have a cite for all this? Sounds like nonsense to me too. From the link FridgeMagnet posted back in 2006, we get this short statement: > [@](#): > > Henry Ford used such screws in the Model A, but dropped it when Robertson refused to give him exclusive rights. Robertson also refused to license other fastener manufacturers, so the design spread very slowly. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/screwdrivers/352198.md?page=2)