# Scripture debates - Satan, omnipotence, etc. \[split from 'Majority atheist world' thread\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 31, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308 "2011-12-31T19:30:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/1 "2011-12-31T19:30:58Z")
> [@Majority atheist world: How far away are we?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-atheist-world-how-far-away-are-we/607913/33): > > Or into Gods! 🙂 If Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowlege of Good and Evil, that was what the Serpent **promised** them they could achieve. Oh what a colossal lie that was. A colossal lie from the Father of Lies. [[[These posts were originally part of this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=636766)]] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/2 "2011-12-31T22:35:44Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > If Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowlege of Good and Evil, that was what the Serpent **promised** them they could achieve. Oh what a colossal lie that was. A colossal lie from the Father of Lies. What lie?! We **are** Gods now, compared to naked children in Eden! ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/3 "2011-12-31T22:46:17Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > If Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowlege of Good and Evil, that was what the Serpent **promised** them they could achieve. Oh what a colossal lie that was. A colossal lie from the Father of Lies. No it wasn’t, at least according to Genesis. God tells them if they eat the fruit they’ll die, the snake tells them if they eat it they’ll “become like God” knowing the difference between good and evil. They eat it, and don’t die (at least not “that very day”) and God confirms that the snake was telling the truth, that man has indeed “become as one of us, to know good and evil” as the snake said they would. So God lied and the snake told the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/4 "2012-01-01T04:39:41Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > No it wasn’t, at least according to Genesis. God tells them if they eat the fruit they’ll die, the snake tells them if they eat it they’ll “become like God” knowing the difference between good and evil. They eat it, and don’t die (at least not “that very day”) and God confirms that the snake was telling the truth, that man has indeed “become as one of us, to know good and evil” as the snake said they would. > > So God lied and the snake told the truth. That is the Luciferian persperctive, yes. How many atheists realize they have Luciferian views? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/5 "2012-01-01T04:45:41Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > That is the Luciferian persperctive, yes. How many atheists realize they have Luciferian views? If we feel to need to believe God is real, why should we care about some secondary character like Lucifer? For that matter, what do _you_ believe about Lucifer? I’m given to understand that many misconceptions exist and a great many beliefs stem more from the works of John Milton than from scripture. Seriously, off the top of your head, what are Lucifer’s major characteristics? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/6 "2012-01-01T05:19:14Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > That is the Luciferian persperctive, yes. How many atheists realize they have Luciferian views? ?? Its not a “perspective”, its the story as told in in Genesis. The snake says one thing will happen if they eat from the tree, God says another. They eat from the tree, God’s prediction doesn’t come true, and God then goes so far as to stress that what the snake told them would happen is in fact what has happened. The snake doesn’t lie, and God does. I don’t think there’s really any room to read it any other way. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/7 "2012-01-01T14:23:56Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > ?? > > Its not a “perspective”, its the story as told in in Genesis. The snake says one thing will happen if they eat from the tree, God says another. They eat from the tree, God’s prediction doesn’t come true, and God then goes so far as to stress that what the snake told them would happen is in fact what has happened. > > The snake doesn’t lie, and God does. I don’t think there’s really any room to read it any other way. The story told in Genesis features Satan as the father of lies, not God. You’ve distorted it in your own mind because you sympathize with Satan instead of God. There’s plenty of room to read it the right way, the way Scriupture intends it to be read. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/8 "2012-01-01T14:40:17Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > The story told in Genesis features Satan as the father of lies, not God. Neither the name Satan or the phrase “father of lies” is in Genesis. You may identify the serpant as such, but that identification isn’t made in the text. And whether the serpent is the “father of lies” or not, he doesn’t lie in Genesis. The book has him make exactly one claim, and the claim comes true. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/9 "2012-01-01T14:43:53Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > That is the Luciferian persperctive, yes. How many atheists realize they have Luciferian views? Who is Lucifer? ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/10 "2012-01-01T16:38:14Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > The story told in Genesis features Satan as the father of lies, not God. You’ve distorted it in your own mind because you sympathize with Satan instead of God. There’s plenty of room to read it the right way, the way Scriupture intends it to be read. When I read posts like this, I don’t know whether to laugh, cry, or barf. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/11 "2012-01-01T17:26:07Z")
Sorry, that was a lot more dismissive than I usually write. Welcome to the SDMB, Theophane. I hope your stay here is a fruitful one. Tomorrow I’ll have PC access to say just why I think that there is a tremendous hole in “to read it the right way, the way Scriupture intends it to be read.” ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/12 "2012-01-01T17:27:17Z")
Does anyone have a link to the creation story in Genesis handy? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/13 "2012-01-01T17:31:22Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Does anyone have a link to the creation story in Genesis handy? Which one? ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/14 "2012-01-01T17:45:39Z")
[Genesis in the New International Version](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+2&version=NIV) If you don’t like this translation, there are 29 more in English on this page, and a few in languages I’ve never even heard of. In this version, it sounds like a missed threat, or a failed test, not a lie, on God’s part. The serpent did not lie. G2 15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it **you will certainly die**.” G3 4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and **you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”** 22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. **He must not be allowed to** reach out his hand and **take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”** ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/15 "2012-01-02T00:16:18Z")
To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” So ya, God is still punishing women for what this original woman did, and that seems reasonable to Christians today? Great religion guys. So lets see God is omnipotent but gets tired when he exercises a finite amount of his power. God is omniscient but pretends not to be for the sake of conversation. God lies but that’s ok because he means well. God cannot predict the future even though he is omnipotent and omniscient or he likes punishing his children for what he set them up to do. I guess as long as you accept he’s a liar (or works in mysterious ways or whatever euphemism you prefer) than the bible makes sense as a manipulation for our own good. Except you can’t really know what God wants from you at that point so what are you getting all worked up with various human behaviors in sex, drugs, whatever else? Convolutions upon convolutions like the surface of the human mind, the vastly most likely origin of God. Maybe we should have called God Wohuman instead. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/16 "2012-01-02T22:03:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Who is Lucifer? The planet Venus, probably. Light-bringer. Maybe a Prometheus type of demigod. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/17 "2012-01-02T22:15:47Z")
I’m kinda curious how many modern Christians associate their bugaboo Lucifer with the planet Venus, or have any inkling such an association ever existed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/18 "2012-01-02T22:58:57Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m kinda curious how many modern Christians associate their bugaboo Lucifer with the planet Venus, or have any inkling such an association ever existed. It’s just an evil-sounding name, y’know, can’t not use it. [Actually refers to the King of Babylon.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer#The_Morning_Star_in_Isaiah_14:12) Who would not have recognized the title in Latin translated from Greek. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/19 "2012-01-03T04:00:55Z")
I remember in the movie _Dogma_, one of the angel characters saying to another “You know who you sound like? The morning-star.” No other mainstream-ish linkage comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/20 "2012-01-03T13:13:33Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If we feel to need to believe God is real, why should we care about some secondary character like Lucifer? > For that matter, what do _you_ believe about Lucifer? I’m given to understand that many misconceptions exist and a great many beliefs stem more from the works of John Milton than from scripture. Seriously, off the top of your head, what are Lucifer’s major characteristics? Scripture predates Milton, not the other way around. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308.md?page=2)