# Scripture debates - Satan, omnipotence, etc. \[split from 'Majority atheist world' thread\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 31, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308 "2011-12-31T19:30:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/201 "2012-01-04T20:49:05Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Yes, the thing about free will is that we all must be free to refuse Him if any of us can be said to choose Him. The thing about choice is that both choices ought to be relatively equally valid. “Obey and it’s all good, disobey and I kill you stone dead forever” is not a choice, it’s a trap. But it goes further than that. Not only does god set up the possibility of a choice, one end of which he evidently hates ; he also eggs us on to make the wrong one by creating the snake. At this point we’re beyond being simply insecure and into cray-cray bullshit territory. Here’s a thought experiment: say you are a happily married woman with a doting, loving husband who is still concerned he might cheat on you. Do you: a) Smell his clothes, pay attention to any red flag, ready to confront him if he does b) have sex with him a lot to keep him good and sex satiated c) Set him up on a Vegas WE alone with Angelina Jolie wearing something slutty, and instruct her to jump his bones and not take no for an answer. d) Just be yourself, que sera sera If you answered c), congratulations, you’re completely dysfunctional ! And if you answered c) but it wasn’t quite insane enough so you added “and make sure to let him know at length what a pig he is when he comes back”, you’re exactly like the god of Genesis. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/202 "2012-01-04T20:50:46Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Shoot, why can’t serpents talk **now**? The Bible doesn’t say that God made the serpents mute or anything… Oh they can. They’re just not talking to _you_. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/203 "2012-01-04T21:07:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > They did not die, and they knew good from evil. > God lied-Serpent told the truth. Where in the Bible does it say different? That’s not quite true. I can say that if you shoot yourself in the head, you will die, as that is true. If a snake said, you will not certainly die, well, that’s true too. People have survived shooting themselves in the head, but they are few and far between. That doesn’t make me a liar. It makes me someone who didn’t qualify his statement for every possible, though extremely unlikely outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/204 "2012-01-04T21:26:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If we don’t know know what the words mean, maybe this story is of no use to us at all. There’s a whole lot of excluded middle between “we may not know precisely what this phrase originally meant” and “this story is of no use at all.” ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/205 "2012-01-04T21:40:25Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Oh they can. They’re just not talking to _you_. This might help - [WarnerBros.com | Landing](http://parseltonguetranslator.warnerbros.com/parseltongue.php) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/206 "2012-01-04T21:41:13Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Ever notice the similarity between the Yrgdrassil in Norse mythology and the Tree of Life in Judeo-Christian mythology? Or Lucifer and Prometheus? No, because there isn’t any beyond both being trees. Yggdrasil is the world axis, the center of the universe, and during the “time” related by Norse myth is still accessible, at least to the Aesir, Vanir, and Jotuns. I suppose there might be a similarity if Idunn’s golden apples, which give the gods’ their prolonged youth, came from it, but I do not believe such is ever mentioned. Nor do I see a similarity between Lucifer and Prometheus. Prometheus is benevolent toward humanity, acting on at least two occasions to protect humans from Zeus. Lucifer, while not always at war with Yahweh, is never seen as a protector of mankind. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/207 "2012-01-04T21:58:50Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > No, because there isn’t any beyond both being trees. Yggdrasil is the world axis, the center of the universe, and during the “time” related by Norse myth is still accessible, at least to the Aesir, Vanir, and Jotuns. I suppose there might be a similarity if Idunn’s golden apples, which give the gods’ their prolonged youth, came from it, but I do not believe such is ever mentioned. > > Nor do I see a similarity between Lucifer and Prometheus. Prometheus is benevolent toward humanity, acting on at least two occasions to protect humans from Zeus. Lucifer, while not always at war with Yahweh, is never seen as a protector of mankind. Are you using “Lucifer” as a synonym for “Satan” here? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/208 "2012-01-04T22:02:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are you using “Lucifer” as a synonym for “Satan” here? You’re being too kind. It would be more accurate to say that I stupidly wrote _Lucifer_ when I meant _Satan_. I promise not to unleash the flaming bees on you if you quote me on that. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/209 "2012-01-04T22:22:48Z")
I should know this but don’t – does Jewish tradition identify the serpent from Eden with Satan? Revelation 12:9 says “The great dragon was hurled down— **that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan** , who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.” It’s a little ambiguous, IMO, whether the author was intentionally alluding to the Genesis serpent in that verse. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/210 "2012-01-05T00:32:40Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > (aside: Serpent as Satan doesn’t make a lot of sense IMHO. Gods curse on the serpant is pretty clearly meant to explain the condition of actual snakes and their enmity with humans, just as his curse on Eve is an attempt to explain actual womans pain at childbirth. It doesn’t make sense if the Serpent isn’t a real snake.) Yes. This is something particularly amazing about the blindness of fundamentalists like Chick, who take such a flatly literal approach. (Or as much as you can be literal with something so contradictory.) They do have to make some fancy interpretations of it, though, which leads to some interesting conclusions. In the full-sized comic “King of Kings” JTC presents the Serpent as an animal who was possessed by Satan. One could just as easily posit that Satan was able to appear as such an animal in the garden. Either way, it makes absolutely no sense to miraculously (genetic engineering?) make all snakes crawl on the ground. It accomplishes nothing against Satan, who would either way not be limited to or committed to snaky-ness. I’m not even raising an animal-cruelty argument here. It’s just that it’s so… dumb. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/211 "2012-01-05T00:55:47Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Or maybe the serpent’s presence in the Garden was no accident. Maybe the serpent’s presence in the Garden was a test of Adam and Eve’s obedience. It doesn’t take omniscience to predict how someone who doesn’t know the difference between Good and Evil will do on that test. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/212 "2012-01-05T01:00:17Z")
Yeah, God sounds like a dope in this parable. A rather vindictive dope, at that. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/213 "2012-01-05T01:20:14Z")
Theophane, may I ask you what you think the world would be like if Adam and Eve hadn’t eaten the fruit? Would it just be those two, wandering around in the Garden, not knowing anything, not even that they were naked? Also, may I ask you if you agree that it is justice to punish a baby for something his remote ancestor did? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/214 "2012-01-05T02:13:39Z")
As long as we’re playing with this, we can come up with a scenario where the whole point of the apple business was to keep the First Couple from the Tree of Life. Think about it. The TOL is not mentioned at all until there’s a chance that God’s pet humans might actually find it. At which point, God goes into “Oh Shit” mode. Of course, ther’s still a chance they might come across it randomly, so he has to distract them. “See that tree over there?” He asks. “No, not that one, the other one. No, the other other one with those big juicy yummy fruits on it. No touchy!” Being stupid but still inquisitive, it must have preyed on them exactly why Mr. G was so insistent about that particular tree, and eventually they would have to see for themselves. But this being Paradise, there were other things to grab their attention. However when their thoughts strayed it was towards the Tree of Knowledge, and they forgot all about the Tree of Life. When this takes too long, the Serpent is sent to give them a final nudge. They chow down and their brains start working. Their first thought being “I’ve made a serious error,” a thought they wouldn’t have had without eating the apple. When it becomes clear that Adam and Eve could gain immortality by deduction rather than just random chance, God has to 86 them before they become a threat to the Ineffable Plan. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/215 "2012-01-05T05:32:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It sounds like God wasn’t really in control when it comes to these two trees. If the reason for the banishment was so that Adam didn’t eat from the other tree, then why didn’t he just change it into a regular tree, or just remove it altogether? What’s with this throwing Adam out of the garden and putting up a guardian angel at the gate? Now you have the garden containing two trees that absolutely no one can get to and/or use. A more fundamental question: why create the trees in the first place? God is already immortal, and knows the difference between good and evil. The serpent also apparently knows the difference, and there’s no reference to him ever eating any apples. So, God doesn’t need the apples himself, and if he wants someone to know the difference between good and evil, he can just make them that way. So, what purpose do the trees serve, except as a honey trap for a couple of animals too dumb to know any better? ---
**Author:** ![dorsk188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f05b48/32.png) [@dorsk188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorsk188)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/216 "2012-01-05T10:38:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Then why, in all the time they were there, they hadn’t yet eaten from it? Other mythological “foods of the gods” are rarely one-time things. Correct me if I’m wrong (and I usually am), but ambrosia would make a human or demigod immortal, as long as they kept eating it periodically. Same thing with Idunn’s apples. It’s not a stretch to say that a tree of life in Eden wouldn’t work the same way in this mythology. > [@Theophane](#): > > Is it a myth? It’s in the Bible, that’s all I know for sure. It must have some signficance even if it’s only a story. The events portrayed in the first few chapters of Genesis have far-reaching implications. Is the Force a myth? It’s in Star Wars, that’s all I know for sure. It must have some significance, even if it’s just a movie. The events portrayed in the Phantom Menace about midichlorians have far-reaching implications… > [@Theophane](#): > > I think it is a myth, although one that conveys certain truths of our existence that we would not otherwise be able to understand. If you’ve studied world mythology you’ll begin to notice the places where all these stories begin to link together. Common themes, archetypes, characters, and whatnot. I’m convinced that mythology is a product of the collective unconscious. This isn’t complete nonsense, but don’t go overboard. You could end up like those Zeitgeist people or Carl Jung… Common themes and archetypes are one thing and may speak to a (somewhat) common psychology shared among humans, but more often than not, people read into the vagaries of the ancients what they want to believe. Just because two civilizations (with cultural connections over centuries) have some stories that have shared aspects, doesn’t mean it’s speaking to a deeper truth about the universe. It could just be that fragments of one culture bled into another. There’s a huge danger of confirmation bias when dealing with mythology because there is so many stories, the cultures were often exchanging ideas, and people tend to focus only on “popular” cultures like those around the Mediterranean or Europe. Remember, for every “common theme” you find, you’re ignoring ten wacky peculiarities like the Yara-ma-yha-who: Aboriginal Australian vampire demon guys that jumped out of trees, swallowed people whole, then vomited them up again, only the person was slightly shorter… > [@Theophane](#): > > Ever notice the similarity between the Yrgdrassil in Norse mythology and the Tree of Life in Judeo-Christian mythology? Or Lucifer and Prometheus? Remember what I said about overboard? Because you’re dripping like an amnesiac Goldie Hawn. Not all trees are the Tree of Life. Not all saviors are Jesus Christ. Not all floods are Ark stories. The symbolism-overload of modern Christianity makes everything mean God or Jesus somehow. Besides, just because two groups of Iron Age people told similar stories doesn’t make it likely to be true or indicative of any deeper truth. There are thousands of people today who will swear they are alien abductees, but that doesn’t mean you believe them, either. Prometheus taught humans how to trick Zeus by only sacrificially burning the garbage parts of animals (bones, fat, eyes, etc.) underneath the hide. When Zeus found out the humans were keeping the good parts, he took away their fire entirely. Prometheus stole it back and was punished for it. Except in the broadest terms, I don’t see a lot of cross-over, especially considering the hero of one story is supposed to be the villain of the other. ---
**Author:** ![Hogfather65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hogfather65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogfather65)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/217 "2012-01-05T10:44:29Z")
> [@Trans Fat Og](#): > > When I read posts like this, I don’t know whether to laugh, cry, or barf. Just Laugh… ---
**Author:** ![dorsk188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f05b48/32.png) [@dorsk188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorsk188)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/218 "2012-01-05T10:55:55Z")
About the topic, I want to put in a good word about Mormons. As I understand it, they believe that the whole Eden thing was a setup to teach humanity to become more like God, so they can become gods themselves. The serpent (Satan or no) was getting the ball rolling, because godhood requires taking responsibility for your actions and free will and rebellion are necessary. (It’s a short summary, but I think it’s got the broad strokes.) It’s still a messed up theology, but at least it’s more consistent and sensical than traditional Christian views. > [@Voyager](#): > > There is no Satan in Genesis. It is a just-so story, explaining why we die, why we have to work, why women have painful childbirth, and why snakes have no legs and bite us. It is a talking animal story, so common in early folklore. Satan as Satan does appear - in Job, as God’s buddy. This is so correct, I just wanted to make it appear again in this thread. Genesis is just put first in the Bible because it made chronological sense. Moderns tend to think the beginnings of things are crucially important because it establishes the context of everything after it. I suspect if ancient Hebrews had their way, they would prefer people focus on Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings (i.e. their “real” history as a people even though it has it’s share of mythology, too). ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/219 "2012-01-05T12:40:10Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > No, because there isn’t any beyond both being trees. Yggdrasil is the world axis, the center of the universe, and during the “time” related by Norse myth is still accessible, at least to the Aesir, Vanir, and Jotuns. I suppose there might be a similarity if Idunn’s golden apples, which give the gods’ their prolonged youth, came from it, but I do not believe such is ever mentioned. Hmm, the Tree of Life is certainly present in Indo-European mythology. Although we don’t know very much on the subject, the Skythians have representations of it as do the Persians. And we all know that the bible started to be put to writing under the Persians. Wasn’t _paradise_ a Persian word? Lucifer = _Bringer of light_ Theophanos = _God’s lantern_ Coincidence ? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/220 "2012-01-05T13:00:30Z")
There were no witnesses at the so called time of Adam and Eve, and they didn’t write anything, Genesis was written some time much later. In all probability it was just a way of explaining to people that is why they had to die. Of course animals and plants had to die too, so it doesn’t add up to me, Why would a Good father that knew the future would punish beings that he knew would disobey him? Or let a being he also created destroy his children…no matter how I look at it, it just doesn’t add up. Either God is not all knowing, or loving, and just likes to play mean games! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308.md?page=12)