# Scripture debates - Satan, omnipotence, etc. \[split from 'Majority atheist world' thread\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 31, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308 "2011-12-31T19:30:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/221 "2012-01-05T13:50:58Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > There were no witnesses at the so called time of Adam and Eve, and they didn’t write anything, Genesis was written some time much later. In all probability it was just a way of explaining to people that is why they had to die. Of course animals and plants had to die too, so it doesn’t add up to me, Why would a Good father that knew the future would punish beings that he knew would disobey him? Or let a being he also created destroy his children…no matter how I look at it, it just doesn’t add up. Either God is not all knowing, or loving, and just likes to play mean games! Where in Genesis does it say He is “all knowing, or loving”? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/222 "2012-01-05T16:27:06Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Hmm, the Tree of Life is certainly present in Indo-European mythology. Although we don’t know very much on the subject, the Skythians have representations of it as do the Persians. Um, so what? I’m not denying that the Tree of Life is not a common theme in myth. I’m saying that Yggdrasil is not that kind of tree, any more than the laurel that Daphne got turned into was. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/223 "2012-01-05T16:35:58Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Um, so what? You were saying they had nothing in common. I was saying that they might have the same roots (hehe) But depictions of some sort of mythical ‘magic’ tree are already on Assyrian and other mesopotamian seals and decorations, well before the Persians. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/224 "2012-01-05T19:12:10Z")
> [@dorsk188](#): > > Remember what I said about overboard? Because you’re dripping like an amnesiac Goldie Hawn. Not all trees are the Tree of Life. Not all saviors are Jesus Christ. Not all floods are Ark stories. The symbolism-overload of modern Christianity makes everything mean God or Jesus somehow. Well, to be fair to him, early Christians in general and Christian missionaries in particular were pretty adept at co-opting the religious symbolism of others in similar fashion, either in a bid to absorb them wholesale at the price of a weird disconnected ritual here and there, or to demonstrate that “see ? You’ve really been worshipping our god all along. Might as well do it properly”. Which itself might be a continuation of the Roman custom of mix 'n matching pantheons and identifying their own gods in other people’s pantheons. \*\*Theophane \*\*is just the modern incarnation of an ancient tradition 😛 If you calibrate the tolerance of your symbolism detector high enough, you can fit anything into anything. No fooling, I’ve read arguments by which Baldr=Jesus, despite there honestly being very little material to connect them at all without having to squint very hard. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/225 "2012-01-05T19:23:36Z")
So if the human evolutionary path had been, say, amphibian instead of arboreal, our myths would speak of “lily-pad of life” and the “moss of the knowledge of good and evil.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/226 "2012-01-05T19:31:17Z")
We’re lucky that didn’t happen. Because, you know, the amphibian hue creates certain kinds of difficulties. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/227 "2012-01-05T19:41:28Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > The story told in Genesis features Satan as the father of lies, not God. You’ve distorted it in your own mind because you sympathize with Satan instead of God. There’s plenty of room to read it the right way, the way Scriupture intends it to be read. > [@Trans Fat Og](#): > > When I read posts like this, I don’t know whether to laugh, cry, or barf. > [@Hogfather65](#): > > Just Laugh… Yeah… but I’ve seen so many examples of people using dogmatism to bully others that I rarely feel pure amusement when the tactics are ostensibly a part of debate. Since I said that I would calmly address what he said (after reflexively giving a purely dismissive response) I will now. I find the “plenty of room” bit reminiscent of people trying to deny contradictions. I’ve seen dozens of examples of people using the slightest bit of “wiggle” room to deny what, taken straightforwardly, is a clear example of internal or historical contradiction. And when they could not do that, they simply made stuff up, or used rhetorical tactics that are merely attempts to change the subject. Second, it strikes me as patently offensive to try to evaluate people as “sympathetic” to Satan just because they can read carefully and distance themselves from what was later “read into” an old narrative. Of course, it’s much more unnerving when I am the recipient, instead of a third party observer. ---
**Author:** ![Bambro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df705f/32.png) [@Bambro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambro)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/228 "2012-01-05T19:43:14Z")
> [@dorsk188](#): > > Remember, for every “common theme” you find, you’re ignoring ten wacky peculiarities like the Yara-ma-yha-who: Aboriginal Australian vampire demon guys that jumped out of trees, swallowed people whole, then vomited them up again, only the person was slightly shorter… [I would have bet my mother’s kidneys](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yara-ma-yha-who) that you made this up. I’ll be damned. :smack: Learned something new today. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![dorsk188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f05b48/32.png) [@dorsk188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorsk188)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/229 "2012-01-06T07:06:41Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, to be fair to him, early Christians in general and Christian missionaries in particular were pretty adept at co-opting the religious symbolism of others in similar fashion… That’s a good point. I remember sitting down with a friend one day and trying to make a grand unified theory of animal symbolism in Christianity. Lambs are both Jesus and his followers (which makes him the shepherd), Jesus is also fish. Doves are God, but not Jesus. Goats and snakes are Satan, but Jesus is also sort of the scapegoat, too. But bronze snakes are also God, sort of. It’s really all over the place, and great fun if you don’t take it at all seriously. Also Jesus is a lion (at least when he’s in a wardrobe). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/230 "2012-01-06T11:43:00Z")
So how does the Easter Bunny fit in? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/231 "2012-01-06T13:32:03Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So how does the Easter Bunny fit in? The Easter Bunny or Easter _Hare_, to be more exact, is a symbol for Freya. Another Freya symbol is the egg. You know who else lays eggs? Exactly! Platypusses! And as the world is more egg shaped than an exact sphere, I dont know what other evidence you need. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/232 "2012-01-06T13:50:16Z")
> [@dorsk188](#): > > About the topic, I want to put in a good word about Mormons. As I understand it, they believe that the whole Eden thing was a setup to teach humanity to become more like God, so they can become gods themselves. The serpent (Satan or no) was getting the ball rolling, because godhood requires taking responsibility for your actions and free will and rebellion are necessary. (It’s a short summary, but I think it’s got the broad strokes.) It’s still a messed up theology, but at least it’s more consistent and sensical than traditional Christian views. > This is so correct, I just wanted to make it appear again in this thread. Genesis is just put first in the Bible because it made chronological sense. Moderns tend to think the beginnings of things are crucially important because it establishes the context of everything after it. I suspect if ancient Hebrews had their way, they would prefer people focus on Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings (i.e. their “real” history as a people even though it has it’s share of mythology, too). The PsamistPsalm 81 on Rc version ,82 in KJV says I said you are gods nd son’s of the most high. Jesus backs this up in John 10 when accused of Blasphemy. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/233 "2012-01-06T13:54:10Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Where in Genesis does it say He is “all knowing, or loving”? Genesis doesn’t say that ,but Christians are taught and believe that about God! So then he couldn’t be all knowing,or loving.John says God is love bur acording to Paul’s discription he isn’t. He is self seeking and that is one of Pauls’s discription of Love. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/234 "2012-01-06T14:46:01Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > Also, if Satan is supposed to be the snake, then how’s he grow legs to pester Job? I believe he won them in a bet with a Georgian fiddler. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/235 "2012-01-06T14:49:17Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > [QUOTE=The Other Waldo Pepper] > Where in Genesis does it say He is “all knowing, or loving”? Genesis doesn’t say that ,but Christians are taught and believe that about God! [/QUOTE] As a Jew, I have no need of that hypothesis. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/236 "2012-01-06T16:07:50Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > As a Jew, I have no need of that hypothesis. 😉 Don’t Jews believe that God is loving and all-knowing? I’m pretty sure Job is full of reminders that God knows everything, at least. And he at least loved the Jews and some others. But not poor Esau. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/237 "2012-01-06T16:18:56Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I’m pretty sure Job is full of reminders that God knows everything, at least. He points out that He knows more than Job, but I’m not sure I recall Him claiming to know everything; I could be convinced by a cite to the contrary. > [@](#): > > And he at least loved the Jews and some others. But not poor Esau. ☹ So there goes the “all-loving” part before I even got a chance to post back. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/238 "2012-01-06T16:42:40Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > A more fundamental question: why create the trees in the first place? Never mind the tree; why create the serpent? ---
**Author:** ![SGT42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9e5f3/32.png) [@SGT42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SGT42)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/239 "2012-01-06T17:06:13Z")
I have two questions: 1. Before eating the fruit Adam and Eve didn’t know that it was wrong to disobey God. Why did he punish them? It is like punishing a toddler who broke a glass. 2. God did not want them to eat from the Tree of Life, because that would make them immortal. But they were already immortal. Death is a punishment for desobedience. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/240 "2012-01-06T17:46:04Z")
I don’t know about all loving, but I was curious about the all knowing part, and I found a webpage that gives a pretty good rundown of quotes: > **[Does God Know Everything? (Omniscient)](https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/don_stewart_359.cfm)** > > The Bible teaches that God is all-knowing or omniscient. The word "omniscient" comes from two Latin words omnis signifying all, and scientia Samples: > [@](#): > > Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; his understanding is infinite (Psalm 147:5). > [@](#): > > Do you know the balance of the clouds, those wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge (Job 37:16). > [@](#): > > Whenever our hearts condemn us; for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything (1 John 3:20). What I didn’t see were examples of first person God saying “I know everything,” which leaves open the possibility that these are just empty platitudes. Several of the examples are very specific, such as predicting people’s deaths, which, if they thought he was omniscient at the time of writing, would have gone without saying. I see that as a minor inconsistency. Others seem like generic praise, like “Our God, he sure does know a lot of things.” It makes me wonder if the concept of an omniscient god grew out of authors trying to out-praise each other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308.md?page=13)