# Scripture debates - Satan, omnipotence, etc. \[split from 'Majority atheist world' thread\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 31, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308 "2011-12-31T19:30:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/21 "2012-01-03T13:23:02Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Scripture predates Milton, not the other way around. Then tell us about the Lucifer of the scripture. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/22 "2012-01-03T13:24:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Then tell us about the Lucifer of the scripture. Read it yourself. Educate yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/23 "2012-01-03T13:29:00Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Read it yourself. Educate yourself. I would like to know if we are referring to the same biblical character. Please tell me what you know about the character Lucifer as he is put forth in the Bible. For example, where does he first appear, and what does he do? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/24 "2012-01-03T13:30:14Z")
This place is called Great Debates, not Great Platitudes. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/25 "2012-01-03T13:59:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I would like to know if we are referring to the same biblical character. Please tell me what you know about the character Lucifer as he is put forth in the Bible. For example, where does he first appear, and what does he do? Lucifer, also known as: -Satan -The Devil -The Father of Lies -The Prince of Demons -The Little Horn -The Enemy -The Accuser -The Dragon/Serpent His first appearance in the Bible is technically as the serpent in Genesis 3, which describes the Fall of Man. The serpent’s purpose was to make the man and woman question God, specifically what He told them about eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/26 "2012-01-03T14:06:42Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Lucifer, also known as: > > -Satan > -The Devil > -The Father of Lies > -The Prince of Demons > -The Little Horn > -The Enemy > -The Accuser > -The Dragon/Serpent > > His first appearance in the Bible is technically as the serpent in Genesis 3, which describes the Fall of Man. The serpent’s purpose was to make the man and woman question God, specifically what He told them about eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. You see-it turns out that there _was_ a need for us to know about your definition of Lucifer. The one _I_ was talking about was the one in the Bible(the king of Babylon), not the one where preachers combine different supposedly evil entities described in the Bible in an effort to create a single Enemy that opposes God. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/27 "2012-01-03T14:09:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You see-it turns out that there _was_ a need for us to know about your definition of Lucifer. The one _I_ was talking about was the one in the Bible(the king of Babylon), not the one where preachers combine different supposedly evil entities described in the Bible in an effort to create a single Enemy that opposes God. There _ **is** _ a single Enemy that opposes God. He has a few different aliases. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/28 "2012-01-03T14:12:12Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > There _ **is** _ a single Enemy that opposes God. He has a few different aliases. I’m sure that was what you were taught in Sunday School. You should just read the book, like I have. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/29 "2012-01-03T14:25:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m sure that was what you were taught in Sunday School. You should just read the book, like I have. What were you taught in Sunday School? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/30 "2012-01-03T15:06:51Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > The serpent’s purpose was to make the man and woman question God . . . Well, I should hope God wouldn’t want any sentient creatures who **wouldn’t** question Him! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/31 "2012-01-03T15:11:01Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > What were you taught in Sunday School? I was told all sorts of things that weren’t actually in the Bible. Fortunately I had read the book beforehand. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/32 "2012-01-03T15:20:09Z")
Reading the bible is what convinced me that it’s just a bunch of nonsense. I’m related to 15 or 20 people that are Christians, a few of them could even be described as very devout, but I’m the only one that has ever attempted to read the bible from start to finish. When I point this out, I’m told the old testament should just be ignored anyway. Who decided which parts get to be ignored? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/33 "2012-01-03T15:24:52Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > His first appearance in the Bible is technically as the serpent in Genesis 3… Uh, _technically_ the Serpent not Satan. It’s just a common–and fairly reasonable, I guess–assumption. > [@](#): > > …which describes the Fall of Man. That the “Fall of Man” occurred so shortly after Creation and while there were still just 2 people is a bit questionable, IMO. > [@](#): > > The serpent’s purpose was to make the man and woman question God, specifically what He told them about eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. That doesn’t make a lot of sense. What was in it for the Serpent for humans to “know good and evil” and so on? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/34 "2012-01-03T15:32:33Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Lucifer, also known as: > > -Satan > -The Devil > -The Father of Lies > -The Prince of Demons > -The Little Horn > -The Enemy > -The Accuser > -The Dragon/Serpent > > His first appearance in the Bible is technically as the serpent in Genesis 3, which describes the Fall of Man. The serpent’s purpose was to make the man and woman question God, specifically what He told them about eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The above is a _major_ reason why a non-theist world is so far away. It is a two-pronged battle to show people that what the religious tomes teach is wrong, and _also_ showing that a large portion of what they learn that isn’t even in the the religious tomes in the first place is also wrong. The first part is difficult because of all the interpretations , and the second part is difficult because of all the different traditions. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/35 "2012-01-03T15:48:44Z")
Here’s the first thing **you** need to learn, **Theophane:** Fear of the Lord is **not** the beginning of wisdom. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/36 "2012-01-03T16:28:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Here’s the first thing **you** need to learn, **Theophane:** > > Fear of the Lord is **not** the beginning of wisdom. Oh, I dunno. **If** you believe in an all-knowing and all-powerful being with an inclination to judge, a healthy dose of respect if not out-and-out pantscrapping terror is probably a sensible position to take. This has nothing to do with conflating popular religious tradition with what’s actually in the Bible, however. The Bible may pre-date Milton but a lot of what people think is from the Bible is actually Miltonian, especially (as alluded to above) the story of Satan/Lucifer. Likewise the kernel of the idea of The Rapture is Biblical (1 Thessalonians) but the bulk of it is an American invention. In much the same way that many Middle Eastern cultural practices associated with Islam are not actually Islamic in origin (burkas, for example) a lot of modern Christianity is cultural accretion. You might as well look to the Bible to justify Christmas trees as a lot of this other stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/37 "2012-01-03T16:57:59Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > This has nothing to do with conflating popular religious tradition with what’s actually in the Bible, however. The Bible may pre-date Milton but a lot of what people think is from the Bible is actually Miltonian, especially (as alluded to above) the story of Satan/Lucifer. I agree its not in the Bible, but I don’t think the basic story of the devil as layed out in Paradise Lost is original with Milton. Wikipedia says the casting out of Lucifer as a rebelling angel originated in various apocryphal Jewish gospels shortly after the time of Christ. The identification of the Serpent as Satan goes back to antiquaty as well, though again, isn’t in the bible (aside: Serpent as Satan doesn’t make a lot of sense IMHO. Gods curse on the serpant is pretty clearly meant to explain the condition of actual snakes and their enmity with humans, just as his curse on Eve is an attempt to explain actual womans pain at childbirth. It doesn’t make sense if the Serpent isn’t a real snake.) ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/38 "2012-01-03T17:00:19Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > There _ **is** _ a single Enemy that opposes God. He has a few different aliases. An omnipotent being can’t have enemies. Not in any meaningful sense. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/39 "2012-01-03T17:34:24Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > There _ **is** _ a single Enemy that opposes God. He has a few different aliases. And this is stated in the bible where, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/40 "2012-01-03T17:35:14Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And this is stated in the bible where, exactly? It’s in the synopsis on the dust-jacket. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308.md?page=3)