# Scripture debates - Satan, omnipotence, etc. \[split from 'Majority atheist world' thread\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 31, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308 "2011-12-31T19:30:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/61 "2012-01-03T20:23:10Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > I believe it is, but you can believe whatever you want. We could argue about this, but sooner or later the thread would be closed. Great. Another self-made “martyr”. Dude, you have no super-seekrit wisdom the moderators are afraid you’ll release to the general population here. Either you can back up your claims, or you can’t. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/62 "2012-01-03T20:47:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, it ain’t. The best way is to study some kind of companion that puts the books in historical context. I recommend _Asimov’s Guide to the Bible._ Isaac Asimov was [an atheist](http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/quote-a2.htm). There is also [evilbible.com](http://www.truefreethinker.com/evilbiblecom) if you find Asimov is too sympathetic to religion. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/63 "2012-01-03T20:58:21Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Isaac Asimov was [an atheist](http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/quote-a2.htm). There is also [evilbible.com](http://www.truefreethinker.com/evilbiblecom) if you find Asimov is too sympathetic to religion. So if someone is an atheist then they cannot have anything useful to say about Christianity? Are you a presuppositionalist/Calvinist? ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/64 "2012-01-03T21:05:25Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > So if someone is an atheist then they cannot have anything useful to say about Christianity? Sometimes it does take an outsider to provide a valid criticism, I’ll grant you that. But even the most erudite and well-spoken people can turn out to be hatemongers, pure and simple. No better than the people they demonize. > [@](#): > > Are you a presuppositionalist/Calvinist? No, not a Calvinist. I was raised in the Catholic Church, but nowadays I’m part of a Baptist congregation and I try not to too hung up on denomination. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/65 "2012-01-03T21:33:55Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Sometimes it does take an outsider to provide a valid criticism, I’ll grant you that. But even the most erudite and well-spoken people can turn out to be hatemongers, pure and simple. No better than the people they demonize. So is Asimov a “hatemonger” or not? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/66 "2012-01-03T21:51:05Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Isaac Asimov was [an atheist](http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/quote-a2.htm). There is also [evilbible.com](http://www.truefreethinker.com/evilbiblecom) if you find Asimov is too sympathetic to religion. Well, can you recommend someone whose work is readable, detailed, annotated _and_ “sympathetic” (however one defines the term)? ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/67 "2012-01-03T22:28:23Z")
> [@Majority atheist world: How far away are we?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/majority-atheist-world-how-far-away-are-we/607913/93): > > Let’s return to the original thread topic rather than getting into disputes over doctrine and Biblical interpretation. I’m back and was about to expound on the clarity of j666’s scripture cite. Has somebody already started a new thread on the “doctrine and Biblical interpretation” tangent that has emerged here? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/68 "2012-01-03T22:34:15Z")
> [@Trans Fat Og](#): > > I’m back and was about to expound on the clarity of j666’s scripture cite. > > Has somebody already started a new thread on the “doctrine and Biblical interpretation” tangent that has emerged here? Not yet. So if you want to discuss that cite, please start that thread. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/69 "2012-01-03T22:50:45Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > So is Asimov a “hatemonger” or not? I didn’t say he was. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/70 "2012-01-03T23:00:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, can you recommend someone whose work is readable, detailed, annotated _and_ “sympathetic” (however one defines the term)? [http://www.biblenotes.net/](http://www.biblenotes.net/) [http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study\_guide/literature/New-Testament-of-the-Bible-About-the-New-Testament-of-the-Bible.id-85.html](http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_guide/literature/New-Testament-of-the-Bible-About-the-New-Testament-of-the-Bible.id-85.html) [http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/newtestament/summary.html](http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/newtestament/summary.html) These are a few links you may find helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/71 "2012-01-03T23:03:51Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > [http://www.biblenotes.net/](http://www.biblenotes.net/) > > [http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study\_guide/literature/New-Testament-of-the-Bible-About-the-New-Testament-of-the-Bible.id-85.html](http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_guide/literature/New-Testament-of-the-Bible-About-the-New-Testament-of-the-Bible.id-85.html) > > [http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/newtestament/summary.html](http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/newtestament/summary.html) > > These are a few links you may find helpful. Just a head’s up; you’re totally going to get piled on 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/72 "2012-01-03T23:05:16Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Just a head’s up; you’re totally going to get piled on 😛 I know. _sigh_ ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/73 "2012-01-03T23:11:47Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > [http://www.biblenotes.net/](http://www.biblenotes.net/) > > [http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study\_guide/literature/New-Testament-of-the-Bible-About-the-New-Testament-of-the-Bible.id-85.html](http://www.cliffsnotes.com/study_guide/literature/New-Testament-of-the-Bible-About-the-New-Testament-of-the-Bible.id-85.html) > > [http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/newtestament/summary.html](http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/newtestament/summary.html) > > These are a few links you may find helpful. Maybe. Any specific references to Lucifer in these? ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/74 "2012-01-03T23:12:51Z")
Do you know how to use the Google search engine? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/75 "2012-01-03T23:14:55Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Do you know how to use the Google search engine? Assuming this question in response to my question, let’s assume I can indeed use Google. Now, do any of the links you’d provided support your descriptions of Lucifer and if so, where? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/76 "2012-01-03T23:19:26Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > [QUOTE=Lobohan] > > An omnipotent being can’t have enemies. Not in any meaningful sense. How do you know? [/QUOTE] Nothing that is not omnipotent can pose even the slightest challenge to something that is omnipotent, because the omnipotent is infinitely beyond it. > [@Theophane](#): > > No, I used to play this little game with online atheists. But not anymore. Because you kept losing, no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/77 "2012-01-03T23:27:57Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > How do you know? Because a being with no limits doesn’t have to fight anyone. He would know of the attack before hand (omnipotence includes omniscience). He could also avert any attack without effort and even re-make the attacker to love him. An omnipotent being can’t be kicked in the nuts unless he wills it. It’s inherent in the concept of omnipotence. Now if you’re suggesting that God is merely, super-duper-powerful and not omnipotent, then He certainly could have enemies. As an aside, if you don’t understand concepts like omnipotence, you probably haven’t put much effort into thinking out your spiritual beliefs. Maybe you should leave these arguments to those who actually put in the work necessary to have a handle on this? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/78 "2012-01-03T23:31:26Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Just a head’s up; you’re totally going to get piled on 😛 If you’re constantly shown to be wrong, it’s not people picking on you. It’s people trying to show you that you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed655f/32.png) [@Crown\_Prince\_of\_Irony](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crown_Prince_of_Irony)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/79 "2012-01-03T23:56:12Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > [@Theophane](#): > > > > Do you know how to use the Google search engine? > > Assuming this question in response to my question, let’s assume I can indeed use Google. > > Now, do any of the links you’d provided support your descriptions of Lucifer and if so, where? Better than Google - I know how to use BibleGateway, one of the most comprehensive online Bible resources around. In fact, even though I’m a true-blooded, dyed in the wool atheist, I use this quite a bit when I’m curious about some bit of Biblical lore. A search for [“Lucifer”](http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=Lucifer&version1=31&version2=9&version3=105&version4=51&version5=173&searchtype=all) shows that the word only appears once, and only in the King James version and its variants. And, as **Czarcasm** indicated, where it does appear, it only references the King of Babylon, in Isaiah 14 and has no connection as an embodiment of Satan whatsoever. While the search engine I selected only lets you pick 5 at a time to search, I chose a fairly broad smattering - if you doubt my cite, **Theophane** , feel free to play around with the search parameters, and get back to us with some actual information, like maybe exactly where in the Bible the name Lucifer is used to describe Satan. As an aside, I saw [this on Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer#.22Morning_Star.22_as_a_title) and had to share: > [@](#): > > The Exultet chant in praise of the paschal candle in the Roman Rite calls Christ the Morning Star, using the Latin word, lucifer: > > Flammas eius _lucifer_ matutinus inveniat: > ille, inquam, _lucifer_, qui nescit occasum, > Christus Filius tuus qui, > regressus ab inferis, > humano generi serenus illuxit, > et vivit et regnat in saecula saeculorum. > > May this flame be found still burning > by the _Morning Star_: > the one _Morning Star_ who never sets, > Christ your Son, > who, coming back from death’s domain, > has shed his peaceful light on humanity, > and lives and reigns for ever and ever. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308/80 "2012-01-04T00:19:20Z")
Huh, so Christ is Lucifer, huh? Go figure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scripture-debates-satan-omnipotence-etc-split-from-majority-atheist-world-thread/608308.md?page=5)