Scripture debates - Satan, omnipotence, etc. [split from 'Majority atheist world' thread]

[Czarcasm]

@Theophane

Of course not. The serpent was taking advantage of the fact that they did not know about deceit or dishonesty. They were naieve. So naieve, thast they didn’t know what nakedness was even though they were naked. This was (shortly) before evil came into the world.

There were as children…and God was as a vindictive and abusive father.

[Skammer]

@The_Other_Waldo_Pepper

If you eat dinner tonight, you’ll die.

No, don’t reply. If you post another reply in this thread, you’ll die.

We begin to die from the moment we are born. Adam and Even did not begin to die until they ate.

@Czarcasm

Translation, or interpretation? Cite, please.

Probably an interpretation but let me see what I can find. I don’t remember where I saw it.

[Kozmik]

@Skammer

We begin to die from the moment we are born.

:dubious:

@Skammer

Adam and Even did not begin to die until they ate.

:rolleyes:

[Czarcasm]

@Skammer

Adam and Even did not begin to die until they ate.

Where in the Bible does it say that they would have lived forever if they hadn’t eaten the fruit?

[Meatros]

@Theophane

Genesis 2:15-18 (NIV)

I’m aware of this verse - I’m saying it makes no sense in light of the idea that A&E didn’t know that it was a bad thing to disobey God.

@Theophane

If you’re serious about reading Scripture, I will link the entire Book of Genesis here.

I have read scripture, but thanks.

@Theophane

I recommend you read it in its entirety instead of piecemeal here on SD. If you’re still not satisfied, maybe there should be a thread exclusively for Bible study.

I’ve read the entire Bible, it still makes no sense.

@Theophane

Of course not. The serpent was taking advantage of the fact that they did not know about deceit or dishonesty. They were naieve. So naieve, thast they didn’t know what nakedness was even though they were naked. This was (shortly) before evil came into the world.

They were also naive to the fact that it was wrong to disobey God - do you agree?

[Meatros]

@Czarcasm

Where in the Bible does it say that they would have lived forever if they hadn’t eaten the fruit?

It doesn’t - in fact, it implies the opposite:
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@Skammer

We begin to die from the moment we are born. Adam and Even did not begin to die until they ate.

I’m not quite seeing that in God’s comment: “Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” – He doesn’t say they only just now started dying, He just says they can get in on the “live forever” bit by eating something else.

[QUOTE=Theophane]
]Of course not. The serpent was taking advantage of the fact that they did not know about deceit or dishonesty. They were naieve. So naieve, thast they didn’t know what nakedness was even though they were naked.
[/QUOTE]

So naïve that – God holds them responsible?

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

Dangit, Meatros beats me to it twice while I’m posting? Maybe I should just bow out and leave it to him for a while.

[Czarcasm]

@Meatros

It doesn’t - in fact, it implies the opposite:
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Then God lied to Adam and Eve. It says so in the Bible.

[Theophane]

@Meatros

I’m aware of this verse - I’m saying it makes no sense in light of the idea that A&E didn’t know that it was a bad thing to disobey God.

How could they not know if God Himself gave them a stern warning?

I have read scripture, but thanks.

Okay.

I’ve read the entire Bible, it still makes no sense.

Don’t worry about it.

They were also naive to the fact that it was wrong to disobey God - do you agree?

No, I don’t agree.

[Crotalus]

[QUOTE=Young’s Literal Translation]
17and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for** in the day of thine eating of it** – dying thou dost die.’
[/QUOTE]

Bolding mine.

As a Christian believer who regards the bible as sacred scripture but not an inerrant text, I sometimes find it useful to consult Young’s Literal Translation. It’s not easy to read, but it is a pretty valuable resource if you want to know what was literally written in the Hebrew or the Greek. I think it is pretty clear that Young found Hebrew words that mean “eat it and you will die pretty durned quick!” And I can’t find any translation that says anything like “you will begin to die”.

[Theophane]

@The_Other_Waldo_Pepper

So naïve that – God holds them responsible?

Evidently, God did hold them responsible. He punished them with banishment. And put an angel to guard the gates of Eden, preventing their return. So it was a non-negotiable punishment

[Czarcasm]

@Meatros

It doesn’t - in fact, it implies the opposite:
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Are there any versions of the Bible out there that either say something different for Genesis 3:22, or leave it out completely? If not, then it’s pretty much universal that Adam and Eve were going to die anyway, and God lied.

[Theophane]

@Kobal2

If he wanted us to simply obey and shut the fuck up, giving us free will and setting us this whole tree snake gambit seems like a massive troll, don’t you think ?

Yes, the thing about free will is that we all must be free to refuse Him if any of us can be said to choose Him.

[Voyager]

@Theophane

My first response to the OP was

What was the lie of the serpent and why was it a lie? The serpent promised Adam and Eve that they would be like God if they ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. He also promised them they would not die.

If they were immortal already, why was God worried about them eating from the Tree of Life and becoming immortal? Just another logical inconsistency of which the Bible is full of.

Genesis 3:1-4 (NIV)

Genesis 3

The Fall
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

And here the Bible explicitly says that the serpent is a wild animal - not Satan, not even filled by the spirit of Satan. So your very own cite (at last!) proves you wrong.

[Meatros]

@The_Other_Waldo_Pepper

Dangit, Meatros beats me to it twice while I’m posting? Maybe I should just bow out and leave it to him for a while.

Maybe I’m you, in a parallel universe and because Ray and Egon crossed the streams, we are both able to post on this board…

@Czarcasm

Then God lied to Adam and Eve. It says so in the Bible.

I guess, technically speaking, God could have been feeding them ‘life apples’ and he was prepared to withhold them from A&E if they ate from the knowledge tree. I’d have to add a bunch to scripture to justify that…

@Theophane

How could they not know if God Himself gave them a stern warning?

What would a stern warning mean to them? They didn’t understand that it was a bad thing to disobey a warning. Further, what did death mean to them - nothing died.

@Theophane

How could they not know if God Himself gave them a stern warning?

If they knew that it was a bad thing to disobey God prior to eating from the tree, then what knowledge did the tree give them?

I think Genesis has implications for the problem of evil - regarding the free will defense - just as a side note.

[Czarcasm]

@Theophane

Evidently, God did hold them responsible. He punished them with banishment. And put an angel to guard the gates of Eden, preventing their return. So it was a non-negotiable punishment

So when did he dismantle Eden?

[Skammer]

@Czarcasm

Translation, or interpretation? Cite, please.

Eugin J. Pentiuc, in his book “Jesus the Messiah in the Hebrew Bible”

This is an excellent point at which to address God’s warning. Correctly translated, God said, “You shall surely begin to die,” which is conventionally rendered “You shall surely die.”… Did God lie?.. We believe that the text, and more precisely the grammar, offers a more satisfying answer. The Hebrew phrase mot tamut, "you shall surely begin to die, consists of an infinitive absolute, mot, “to die,” for emphasis, rendered here by the adverb, “surely,” and an imperfective, tamut, “you shall die.” Both verbal forms derive from the same root m-w-t, expressing the idea of “dying.” The imperfective aspect designates an incomplete action, one in the process of occurring, with an unidentified starting point. It is unclear whether this starting point is in the past, the present, or the future. We suggest that a correct rendering of the imperfective tamut must indicate a continuous future, such as “you will surely be dying,” or the phrase we have translated above, “you shall begin do die.” This translation makes more sense in the context of the narrative and, more importantly, depicts death in its basic characteristic, as a process rather than a precise point in time.

[Meatros]

@Czarcasm

Are there any versions of the Bible out there that either say something different for Genesis 3:22, or leave it out completely? If not, then it’s pretty much universal that Adam and Eve were going to die anyway, and God lied.

Here’s a good resource for comparing versions.

It doesn’t look like any of them change the fundamental meaning of the verse.

[Voyager]

@Theophane

Evidently, God did hold them responsible. He punished them with banishment. And put an angel to guard the gates of Eden, preventing their return. So it was a non-negotiable punishment

Adam and Eve were innocent, and did not understand good and evil until they ate from the tree. Thus, they could not realize that disobeying God was evil, and were putty in the hands of the serpent. Just the first example of a bunch of rubes from the sticks getting cheated by the big city slicker.

If a parent tells a child to young to understand not to do something, and when the child does it beats the crap out of him, the parent is being abusive. Maybe that is why God is so scarce - he got locked up by some celestial Child Protective Services Department.