# Scum mafia: On Cecil pond \[Game Over\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 24, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202 "2010-01-24T05:10:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 104
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/2061 "2010-03-19T11:26:41Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > (3) the roles were balanced… it’s the game structure that was not. As I already came out [or had my comments come out for me] I feel free to add: \*\* This. \*\* Did anyone answer my question on why Town thought we had to have a Cop and Doc? I am willing to bet if we didn’t have this assumption in place, the Diggit Lynch would not have happened. It’s interesting, a lot of people would call me a distracted player. Where are false assumptions, when it comes to “Distractions” ? ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/2062 "2010-03-19T11:31:28Z")
> [@TexCat](#): > > Yes I thought he was lying! Bulletproof still seems way too powerful to me. I would not have voted Diggit had he not claimed. Even given the fact that all the powers had “”“drawbacks”“” ? ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/2063 "2010-03-19T11:37:17Z")
> [@TexCat](#): > > Re Individual vs. team > > As a townie, it often feels like an individual game because you can’t strategize or discuss as a team. You can’t trust any of the other players as teammates. Right, so, given this, I don’'t know why anyone would not want to play the best they personally can. Somone else stated that one should not do something good for the town-player, bad for town. If this was directed at me, please let me know when I did this, ever. \*\*Drain was dead wrong on not stating that Skeezix was not a mason. This hurts town more than scum. Further, how was I supposed to know Drain’s play there? \*\* At the time I claimed, I felt the game was dead-locked, and I felt I could not continue playing, stating anything without slipping as Drain actually did. \*\*Some other pond player should have claimed at that time. Period. \*\* For my part, I think it was the best play I had, at the time. It DID make progress on the game. It did get pond to stop wasting time on me. Drain, I would love to know, how I was supposed to know that your grand plan was so much better than mine. For this I should be “set on fire” ? ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/2064 "2010-03-19T11:39:22Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Even given the fact that all the powers had “”“drawbacks”“” ? Perhaps the better phrasing was “Even given the fact that the balance of all the other power roles, seemed to beg for “more” from somewhere?” ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/2065 "2010-03-19T11:58:17Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > It was guessed only after storyteller successfully ate Red Skeezix. Deep into the game! I’m fairly sure it was mentioned before Story flipped. > [@sachertorte](#): > > Town can’t assume that there isn’t an investigator either. That’s my whole point! I understand your point, but it’s simply bad play to assume there must be an investigator. > [@sachertorte](#): > > (1) you can’t look at the outcome of a game to assess its balance How else can it be assessed? > [@sachertorte](#): > > (2) I already pointed out that the muffed cop claim negated the major bad juju of no cop in the game. The point it is it didn’t have to be muffed. Even if the claim hadn’t been fluffed, town might have lynched another scum instead. If I’d flipped, would Kelly’s claim have been believed? Town have lots of tools for assessing a claimant. Does the colour match? Does it conflict with a known role? Does the claimant’s play match the role? Do any claimed actions make sense? Is there any way of testing the claim? Does it upset game balance? I think there may be a difference in our playstyles here. I’m prepared to lynch claimants if I think they are likely to be scum. > [@sachertorte](#): > > (3) the roles were balanced… it’s the game structure that was not. I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/2066 "2010-03-19T12:17:20Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Right, so, given this, I don’'t know why anyone would not want to play the best they personally can. > > Somone else stated that one should not do something good for the town-player, bad for town. > > If this was directed at me, please let me know when I did this, ever. Meeko, way back in the game, when storyteller claimed and then claimed his drawback, you made several comments to the effect that: 1. Not learning the identity of his victim is bad for Town. 2. But not learning the identity of his victim is good for story, the Vig, because no one will have any evidence to use to lynch him. That’s where my comment came from. If it’s bad for Town, it’s bad for every Town player, including story. Just because he wouldn’t get any personal heat doesn’t mean he’s helping his team. ```auto And, as an aside, had story decided to use such an anti-Town power willy-nilly, he would have taken a great deal of heat from some players who saw the inherent anti-Towniness of his actions. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Also, way back in the distant past, I did sorta breadcrumb my fellow masons. It was pretty subtle, and I think even they might not have picked up on it. I mentioned watching the 3 of them work together as Scum in Colorless ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And great game, Chronos. I found in interesting during my short life. :D ``` ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/2067 "2010-03-19T12:21:50Z")
Well done, scum! Kudos to **Rysto** , **amrussell** and **OreDigger** for bringing the boat home. Thank you **Chronos** for running the game. Apologies to the scum for botching my role claim, I was glad to see it didn’t cost us the win. Looking forward to having another shot in **sach** ’s game. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/2068 "2010-03-19T14:57:25Z")
> [@amrussell](#): > > I thought the riskiest thing I did was switch my vote to Alka on Day 5. Town were right not to give you any cred for it, but I didn’t think it was blatantly scummy. It could have been an attempted scum vote for cred, or a town vote to put the lynch beyond doubt. > [@amrussell](#): > > Similarly, by the time Rysto had three votes racked up, I didn’t think I’d get any credit for bussing him - in fact, people would be looking for scum bussing him when he flipped. I genuinely thought the safer play was to put together the best case I could on someone else, so that if Rysto flipped I could hand on heart say that I was pursuing a good case of my own. That’s interesting, I think we all assumed you were trying to push the Diggit lynch to save Rysto. It was risky because Rysto was already voting for Diggit, and your vote tipped the balance. If Rysto had flipped, town would have been likely to see your vote as trying to save him, and would have also thought that Diggit was likely to be town. That would have been two indications pointing towards you as possible scum. > [@amrussell](#): > > Obviously there are cases like Kelly’s where there’s almost no way not to bus, but for the more marginal cases, is bussing still a good strategy, or are we too hip to it to let it slide past us? Bussing can still be a good tactic. The problem for town is always identifying the bus votes. It’s the uncertainty that hurts town, more than any cred scum get for voting each other. Anyway, thanks for the game everyone, especially the scum team who were a blast to play with. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/2069 "2010-03-19T15:32:32Z")
Ed, I Think Freudian’s breadcrumb was even more blatant. \*\*It was an entire Loaf. \*\* Why Freudian felt the need to name the rest of us, is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/2070 "2010-03-19T15:34:06Z")
I don’t think I named all of you? Anyway, I just figured it would make sense if I did need to claim to be able to go back and breadcrumb. Plus I figured everyone thought I was uber scummy last time, that I guess I was overcompensating. Maybe I’ll alter my playing style next time. Or not, depending on the role I get! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/2071 "2010-03-19T15:35:48Z")
On Vigs that don’t give information on their viggee; If a Town Vig vigs another Townie, would you guys [town] vote to Lynch the vig? If some of you would, I ask why throw good money after bad? The conversation of lynching the town Vig after a miss-vig should not even occur. If something can ensure that, that conversation never happens, I see it as a benefit for town. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/2072 "2010-03-19T16:33:34Z")
Why would we vote to lynch the Vig? Just as town will often vote for town, Vigs can be expected to kill town. It doesn’t mean they’re not the Vig. It’d be crazy or scummy to want to lynch a claimed Vig just because he killed a town. Who do you think would start that conversation? I think you’re starting at shadows. But do you not see how bad it is for town for people just to disappear from the game without a reveal of their alignment? Heck, you were saying we should lynch Scuba when you thought he’d be mod-killed - how is a Vig kill which leaves no info any better? ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/2073 "2010-03-19T16:49:34Z")
I would say they are the same. And given that Mod-killing “just is”, likewise, I would say so for a Town-vigged that gives no death reveal. I don’t think it deserves as much… It’s not as bad as everyone is saying it is. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/2074 "2010-03-19T18:22:45Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I don’t think I named all of you? Anyway, I just figured it would make sense if I did need to claim to be able to go back and breadcrumb. Plus I figured everyone thought I was uber scummy last time, that I guess I was overcompensating. Maybe I’ll alter my playing style next time. Or not, depending on the role I get! 🙂 Never, ever breadcrumb. I never seen it useful and typically it just attracts attention. Only an alignment investigator could try it but it should be very subtly or he is only painting a bulls-eye on himself. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/2075 "2010-03-19T18:33:47Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > Never, ever breadcrumb. I never seen it useful and typically it just attracts attention. Only an alignment investigator could try it but it should be very subtly or he is only painting a bulls-eye on himself. I’ve played other games, though, where when someone role claims, people will ask, “Well, did you breadcrumb, and if so why not?” So I kind of felt…like, will people be more doubtful if there’s no breadcrumbing? ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/2076 "2010-03-19T18:33:59Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > Never, ever breadcrumb. I never seen it useful and typically it just attracts attention. Only an alignment investigator could try it but it should be very subtly or he is only painting a bulls-eye on himself. I’m not a huge fan of masons breadcrumbing, or claiming when there’s no pressure as **Meeko** did. The job of a masonry is to remain hidden as long as possible, claim only if necessary, and then claim when there are two left. I’m actually pretty surprised the Scum left us along as long as they did, but I suppose that they were looking for a cop too. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/2077 "2010-03-19T18:38:09Z")
That, and the fact we were worried about a possible doctor protecting you. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/2078 "2010-03-19T20:51:16Z")
Oh, one thing I’ve been meaning to mention: A couple of clever things **Kelly** did. Yes, he botched the claim, but he did accomplish two good (for his teams) things in the process: First, it was all his idea to draw out the claim slowly like he did (which was helped by the timezone lag), which had the effect that almost nothing else ended up getting discussed that entire Summer. Second, it was also entirely his idea to ask those two green questions he asked, which apparently increased his credibility with some folks. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/2079 "2010-03-19T20:56:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Oh, one thing I’ve been meaning to mention: A couple of clever things **Kelly** did. Yes, he botched the claim, but he did accomplish two good (for his teams) things in the process: First, it was all his idea to draw out the claim slowly like he did (which was helped by the timezone lag), which had the effect that almost nothing else ended up getting discussed that entire Summer. Second, it was also entirely his idea to ask those two green questions he asked, which apparently increased his credibility with some folks. I think that if I hadn’t pressed him to post his PM, he might have been able to skate. My mistake there was pretty dumb: I nearly had a heart attack at the beginning of the Summer when he said that he had two names already. I was certain that he’d get lynched for the inconsistency. As the Summer went on and people seemed to believe him more and more, I figured that he was going to get away with the inconsistency. That was idiotic, because the Town didn’t even know about the inconsistency yet! I forgot to partition what I knew from what the Town knew. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/2080 "2010-03-19T23:05:05Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > I think that if I hadn’t pressed him to post his PM, he might have been able to skate. My mistake there was pretty dumb: I was doubtful when you suggested it. Would have been brilliant if it had worked, though. Then again, it didn’t end up winning it for town anyway. ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202.md?page=103) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202.md?page=105)