# Scum mafia: On Cecil pond \[Game Over\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 24, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202 "2010-01-24T05:10:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/221 "2010-01-29T02:51:14Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Do you really fear scum because of their vote? Seriously? \ yep. read ragnorak Day four. shoot this attitude will get us fucked. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/222 "2010-01-29T02:55:48Z")
I wholeheartedly agree with **sachertorte**. With all due respect **story** , are you nuts? Day One lynches are invariably clusterfucks. On the rare occasion that we do catch scum on Day One, it’s always based on a thin case. Town’s goal in Day One is to get as much information as possible. Lynching scum is a bonus. Lynching two players today is almost certainly going to result in a double mislynch. What’s the hurry? What’s the benefit to Town in not delaying the second lynch until we have the information from the first lynch? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/223 "2010-01-29T03:18:57Z")
Vote total: Spawn 9 peekercpa 2 storyteller0910 1 1: special\_ed 2: ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies – Spawn (193) 3: Drain Bead – Spawn (191) 4: Oredigger77 – Spawn (194) 5: storyteller0910 6: Meeko – Spawn (182) 7: Mahaloth – Spawn (209), peeker (209) 8: Freudian Slit – Spawn (183) 9: USCDiver 10: Alka Seltzer 11: peekercpa – Spawn (186), story (186) 12: Natlaw 13: Zeriel – Spawn (204), peeker (204) 14: DiggitCamara 15: amrussell 16: KellyCriterion 17: Scuba\_Ben 18: sachertorte – Spawn (202) 19: fluiddruid 20: TexCat – Spawn (198) 21: Rysto ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/224 "2010-01-29T03:20:07Z")
> [@peekercpa](#): > > \ > > well since i know i am town, then, yeh voting for a total unknown strong player would be the cards. > > uh, you know something? I know that “let’s kill the good players because we can’t risk that they’re scum” is a surefire way to reduce town’s overall ability to win by killing all the good players. Frankly the silliest strategy proposal in a while. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/225 "2010-01-29T03:20:09Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > I think the short version of this is that the knee-jerk response is wrong. In some cases, lynching multiple players may prove to be a beneficial strategy, because having an extra Spawn hanging around won’t really affect us _at all_ until the endgame. > > In fact, for these reasons, I’m not even 100% sure that it makes sense to lyse Spawn at all this Summer. I realize that this opinion may get no traction, and that I’ll most likely take heat for it, but I learned a very important lesson from **Ed’s** game about playing to not get lynched, so there’s my opinion - let’s see what folks think. **storyteller** has a good point on the count analysis. Early in the game, there’s less harm to a carefully considered effort to let the Spawn spawn, in favor of gathering information by trying to lyse Scum and cleanse the pond. The key being, of course, carefully considered. If the Spawn get out of [del]hand[/del] pseudopod, the Scum win. Still == > [@special\_ed](#): > > With all that said, I think early in the game, when we have little information to go on, it might be best to lynch the spawn as well as a player. Spawn are known to be pro-Scum, that’s all the information we all have this early. It’s better than a random vote for now. So: **Vote Spawn** (And I note that since I have a better-than-random reason for one of my votes, **Meeko** is no longer fully at risk of a pseudorandom vote.) I’m very uncertain about **satchertorte** ’s post. While we do have to keep the Spawn population under control, we have the option to lyse two players. I decline to dismiss that option entirely. Assuming there’s an investigation role (a very good assumption), they may have enough information eventually that it’s in the pond’s interests to go for the two player lynch. Still… unless somebody slips badly, I don’t see that situation coming up during Year One. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/226 "2010-01-29T03:21:14Z")
NETA: Confirming receipt of PM, of course. AOFTP: Silly 60 second interval between posts. If I had evolved voice, I’d scream. And I have had an urge today to play Primordial Soup. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/227 "2010-01-29T03:37:24Z")
> [@](#): > > If I had evolved voice, I’d scream. What do you think I AM, anyway, some sort of genocidal gasterd supercomputer? ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/228 "2010-01-29T03:39:24Z")
I don’t know that I’m parsing sache’s tone as dismissive of all things other than lysing a Spawn each round, at least not to the extent that some other people seem to be. Metagame perhaps, but he strikes me as just as likely to be a Townie confident that he’s right but willing to consider evidence to the contrary, as opposed to someone who is “dismissing anything entirely” (quoting Scuba), or “[promoting] a spawn lynch every Day without question” (quoting special ed), or of the opinion that any other option is “egregiously problematic” (quoting story). I think it is a null tell with respect to sache, and potentially see a cluster of exaggerations of his position. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/229 "2010-01-29T04:05:12Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I know that “let’s kill the good players because we can’t risk that they’re scum” is a surefire way to reduce town’s overall ability to win by killing all the good players. Frankly the silliest strategy proposal in a while. **WHERE THE FUCK DID I SAY THAT?** quit making shit up. i mean call me out for a bullshit pseudo random vote but don’t transfer a whole buch of freudian crap on me. fuck it. **unvote story** **vote z** i mean my vote was INTENDED to be lame but at least it was clear. yours is a whole bunch of funk. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/230 "2010-01-29T04:05:35Z")
Ahem. I am **declining** to dismiss anything entirely. Did you simply misread me, **Cookies** , or did you misquote me? ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/231 "2010-01-29T04:07:13Z")
neta: unless you were whooshing me, in which case i didn’t catch it. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/232 "2010-01-29T04:12:04Z")
> [@Scuba\_Ben](#): > > Ahem. I am **declining** to dismiss anything entirely. Did you simply misread me, **Cookies** , or did you misquote me? I did not misquote you. I did apply your quote as a suggestion made about an implied target, sach. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/233 "2010-01-29T04:25:39Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > I wholeheartedly agree with **sachertorte**. With all due respect **story** , are you nuts? Day One lynches are invariably clusterfucks. On the rare occasion that we do catch scum on Day One, it’s always based on a thin case. Town’s goal in Day One is to get as much information as possible. Lynching scum is a bonus. Lynching two players today is almost certainly going to result in a double mislynch. What’s the hurry? What’s the benefit to Town in not delaying the second lynch until we have the information from the first lynch? Well, look. Leave aside the Spawn for just one tiny moment, OK? I’ll get back to the Spawn. Let’s say the Mod gave you a choice. Let’s say the Mod said, you may pick from the following two options: 1. Game as normal. One lynch Day One, Night kill Night One, and so on into eternity; or 2. You lynch Day One, but you don’t get your results until the end of Day Two. The catch? No Night actions, including Scum kill, during Night One. We would all jump on #2, right? Lynches are our tool, our way of getting information. Even if they are sloppy, two lynches without the Scum getting to Night kill is always a plus; it’s as if a Doctor had a successful protection. Well, the present situation, _sans_ Spawn lynch, _is,_ essentially, option #2. Now, the Spawn mechanic changes things in a very serious way. I just don’t think it’s the slam dunk that you and **sachertorte** believe it to be. More on this in the morning. * * * **Cookies** , I strongly disagree with your characterization of the situation from top to bottom. My wife is jonesing to go check Cafe World, so a longer response will have to wait until morning, but in short: no one, so far, has expressed any sort of suspicion of sachertorte on the basis of his opinion about this. Your concern for the exaggeration being used to characterize his position seems a bit premature. And yeah, I think the auto-vote for Spawn that happened at the outset of this Day was great cover for Scum to slip in and show how Townie they were by acting the same as all the Townies. Were you under the impression I was accusing all 8-10 people who voted Spawn of being Scum? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/234 "2010-01-29T04:28:47Z")
[quote=“peekercpa, post:229, topic:526202”] **WHERE THE FUCK DID I SAY THAT?** quit making shit up. i mean call me out for a bullshit pseudo random vote but don’t transfer a whole buch of freudian crap on me. > [@peekercpa](#): > > yeh voting for a total unknown strong player would be the cards. How else you want that interpreted other than “I’m going to vote for strong players”? I repeat, this is up there for most foolish strategy in a Mafia game I’ve seen. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/235 "2010-01-29T04:31:13Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > **Cookies** , I strongly disagree with your characterization of the situation from top to bottom. My wife is jonesing to go check Cafe World, so a longer response will have to wait until morning, but in short: no one, so far, has expressed any sort of suspicion of sachertorte on the basis of his opinion about this. Your concern for the exaggeration being used to characterize his position seems a bit premature. > > And yeah, I think the auto-vote for Spawn that happened at the outset of this Day was great cover for Scum to slip in and show how Townie they were by acting the same as all the Townies. Were you under the impression I was accusing all 8-10 people who voted Spawn of being Scum? I can’t help but concur with you here–I don’t think we can make any judgements on towniness/scumminess from anything related to the Spawn mechanic and strategies for dealing with same until we get to the point where we have killed 2-3 scum and can reasonably surmise that the spawn are suddenly a potential spoiler for scum planning/voting–which is also the time, IMHO, it starts making sense to leave spawn alive. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/236 "2010-01-29T04:34:24Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > And as has already been said, every mis-lyse of a Townie (which is likely to happen when we try and lyse non-Spawn, and even more likely to happen when we try to lynch two non-Spawn) takes the Town farther away from win condition fulfillment regardless of what other data may or may not be divulged upon the flip, while lysing Spawn takes the Town closer to win condition fulfillment. On the face of it, this seems valid. But on further inspection, it’s meaningless. Yes, when we lyse Spawn, we know we’re getting a bad guy. However, the real bad guys are the Scum. And it’s true we’re likely to make mistakes, it’s the main way of getting rid of Scum. It’s dangerous to think of mislynches as bringing us farther from our win condition. Because lyncihg is the only way to get the Scum. And, while we’re likely to make mistakes, I’m also not willing to acept that lynching 2 players makes us doubly likely to mislynch. I would propose, in fact, that many times the 2nd candidate IS the Scum when we mislynch. Anyway, this is all hypothetical, we don’t really know what we’re dealing with. And still, I maintain that for now, we are probably better off lynching Spawn, but I’m still not willing to make it our standard operating procedure. I think it needs to be continually discussed. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/237 "2010-01-29T04:38:45Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Well, look. Leave aside the Spawn for just one tiny moment, OK? I’ll get back to the Spawn. > > Let’s say the Mod gave you a choice. > > Let’s say the Mod said, you may pick from the following two options: > > 1. Game as normal. One lynch Day One, Night kill Night One, and so on into eternity; or > 2. You lynch Day One, but you don’t get your results until the end of Day Two. The catch? No Night actions, including Scum kill, during Night One. > > We would all jump on #2, right? Lynches are our tool, our way of getting information. Even if they are sloppy, two lynches without the Scum getting to Night kill is always a plus; it’s as if a Doctor had a successful protection. Well, the present situation, _sans_ Spawn lynch, _is,_ essentially, option #2. You’ve got a very good point, **storyteller**. The basic mechanic of this game is: Day, Town lynches two. Dusk, Scum gain one, who sticks out like a sore thumb. Night, Scum kill one. In kill terms, the pond can eliminate two players to the Scum’s one. This is (somewhat) balanced by the Scum’s growth via Spawn. So the pond has an ability to gain twice as much definite information as normal. I repeat my opinion from earlier, this is an option worth keeping. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/238 "2010-01-29T04:49:25Z")
Vote total: Spawn 10 peekercpa 2 Zeriel 1 1: special\_ed 2: ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies – Spawn (193) 3: Drain Bead – Spawn (191) 4: Oredigger77 – Spawn (194) 5: storyteller0910 6: Meeko – Spawn (182) 7: Mahaloth – Spawn (209), peeker (209) 8: Freudian Slit – Spawn (183) 9: USCDiver 10: Alka Seltzer 11: peekercpa – Spawn (186), [del]story[/del] (186-229), Zeriel (229) 12: Natlaw 13: Zeriel – Spawn (204), peeker (204) 14: DiggitCamara 15: amrussell 16: KellyCriterion 17: Scuba\_Ben – Spawn (225) 18: sachertorte – Spawn (202) 19: fluiddruid 20: TexCat – Spawn (198) 21: Rysto ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/239 "2010-01-29T04:55:14Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > **Cookies** , I strongly disagree with your characterization of the situation from top to bottom. My wife is jonesing to go check Cafe World, so a longer response will have to wait until morning, but in short: no one, so far, has expressed any sort of suspicion of sachertorte on the basis of his opinion about this. Your concern for the exaggeration being used to characterize his position seems a bit premature. > > And yeah, I think the auto-vote for Spawn that happened at the outset of this Day was great cover for Scum to slip in and show how Townie they were by acting the same as all the Townies. Were you under the impression I was accusing all 8-10 people who voted Spawn of being Scum? No, I was under the impression that you apparently chose to try and say something reasonable in a way that was very broad and with a high probability of false-positives. Whether or not that was a manipulation or not, I don’t know yet, but it definitely caught my eye. > [@special\_ed](#): > > On the face of it, this seems valid. But on further inspection, it’s meaningless. Yes, when we lyse Spawn, we know we’re getting a bad guy. > > However, the real bad guys are the Scum. And it’s true we’re likely to make mistakes, it’s the main way of getting rid of Scum. > > It’s dangerous to think of mislynches as bringing us farther from our win condition. Because lyncihg is the only way to get the Scum. > > And, while we’re likely to make mistakes, I’m also not willing to acept that lynching 2 players makes us doubly likely to mislynch. I would propose, in fact, that many times the 2nd candidate IS the Scum when we mislynch. > Anyway, this is all hypothetical, we don’t really know what we’re dealing with. > > And still, I maintain that for now, we are probably better off lynching Spawn, but I’m still not willing to make it our standard operating procedure. I think it needs to be continually discussed. Imho anything that goes against our win condition is by definition bad and real and of course there are various ways some will be more dangerous than others depending on context. The idea that it is dangerous to keep mislynches in their proper context of being counter productive to the win condition is surreal in its absurdity. I’m also not willing to accept that lynching 2 players makes us twice as likely to mislynch, which is why I said that it would make us _more_ likely to mislynch. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/240 "2010-01-29T05:03:31Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > No. My knee-jerk reaction was that double lyse of players was an interesting twist and viable option. It wasn’t until I thought about the situation more that I realized that spawn is a zero sum game. I wasn’t really referring to _your_ approach, in particular, as knee-jerk; you have given it thought and have looked at it from multiple sides. I thought the group reaction as a whole, which has resulted in ten Spawn votes within six hours of role assignment, was fairly characterized as knee-jerk as I understand the term. > [@](#): > > If we fail to lyse spawn, then at some point in the future we must lyse TWO in one summer. Which do you think is better, lynches in the early game or lynches in the late game? If you can convince me that early lynches are more beneficial than late game lynches, then I will agree with deferring spawn lynches. In my experience, I’ve found that town is terrible at finding scum in the early game, and much better at finding scum in the late game. Thus, to me, taking shots in the early game seems like a recipe for disaster. I would much rather have the option of lynching players in the late game. Well, it really sort of depends on what you mean by “the late game,” doesn’t it? I mean, if the Town uses the double-PC-lyse once in the early game, it will result in a single extra Spawn hanging around. Said extra Spawn need not ever be dealt with until all PC Scum have been killed. Granted, we won’t know exactly when we’ve killed all the PC Scum, but it will eventually become apparent (at worst, when we’re down to three living players and two Spawn, and the game isn’t over, the three living players would know that they are all Town, and could act accordingly). In other words, the double-Spawn-lyse need not be used in the late game, but as the last thing that happens (assuming a Town win). Does that make sense? If it doesn’t, let me know, and I"ll try again 🙂 > [@](#): > > Plus I’m not even convinced that killing two at once will yield more information than killing one at a time. In my view the double kill obfuscates the vote record. Two kills super-imposed? There is no distinguishing votes! It seems like a mess to me. How is it a mess or obfuscated? Every player is responsible for is or her own vote(s). I think in the ideal system, you’d vote for your strong suspects. If you have only one strong suspect, vote for that player and a Spawn. If you have two strong suspects, vote for both. In the end, whether we do a double lyse in a given Summer depends on whether there are enough players willing to go on record as having suspicions strong enough to _support_ a double lyse. I don’t see how that obfuscates or confuses anything. > [@](#): > > Basically I think that 2 today and 0 tomorrow is much worse than 1 today and 1 tomorrow. It provides a cleaner vote record AND the second kill is made WITH MORE INFORMATION (the result of the first kill). In the words of the immortal classic, _Chicken Run_, “are those the only two choices?” I argue that they are not; that we could do two today and one tomorrow and one the day after that and so on until dealing with the Spawn is the only business that remains to us. Of course, that strategy carries a risk. If we mislynch a few times, we may have to double-lyse Spawn just to keep from losing. That’s a significant risk, and one of which we would have to be mindful. Of course, this is largely academic, as there is zero support for a First Summer double-PC-lyse - hell, I don’t even know if _I_ think it’s a good idea or not. But the early discussion of it is probably worth examining, yes? Bed now, analysis later. I’m baffled that we even need to discuss this. [/QUOTE] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202.md?page=13)