# Scum mafia: On Cecil pond \[Game Over\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 24, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202 "2010-01-24T05:10:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/81 "2010-01-26T17:40:30Z")
> [@](#): > > For Spawn, is non voting a 50/50 chance, or given equal weight to any other one person? That is, at the start of the game, is a Non-voting Spawn a 50/50 chance, or a 1:22 chance? Spawn will never choose no-vote. > [@](#): > > Is there a group that Spawn can not vote for? [including other spawn] During the summer Lyse vote, Spawn can vote for anyone other than Spawn. During the winter Outcompete vote, Spawn can vote for anyone other than Spawn or Scum. > [@](#): > > Can Spawn be targeted? Anyone who has a targeted ability will know the answer to this question. > [@](#): > > How random is random? (Method, Seeds, etc.) I’ll probably throw dice. > [@](#): > > Will the number of Spawn influence Spawn voting habits? Each Spawn chooses independently of all other Spawn. > [@](#): > > As more Spawn … spawn, and no player votes for spawn, the odds of spawn hitting other spawn increase, correct? It is not like spawn will at any point favor Pond over Spawn in their individual Votes, correct? As above, Spawn will never hit Spawn. > [@](#): > > Will the final spawn votes per end of summer be public information? Will each spawn populate, and be identified in a end of summer vote count? Not that it matters, but will spawn votes be in any other vote count, aside from final end of summer? The Spawn votes will be revealed in the end-of-Summer post, but no sooner. > [@](#): > > What happens if there are more Spawn than players? That would necessarily imply that Scum+Spawn is greater than Pond, and so would be a Scum win condition. > [@](#): > > Is there a separate wincon for Spawn alone? Spawn are part of the Scum team, with the same win condition. If all human Scum are dead, but the Spawn still manage to outnumber the humans, the Scum still win. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/82 "2010-01-26T17:42:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Spawn are part of the Scum team, with the same win condition. If all human Scum are dead, but the Spawn still manage to outnumber the humans, the Scum still win. This would be the most mortifying Town loss, ever. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/83 "2010-01-26T18:52:56Z")
Have a good one, I shall lurk with interest. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/84 "2010-01-26T19:42:03Z")
I know have this visual of anthropomorphized effervescent tablets floating in a pond of scum, covered with mutliplying, randomly-voting, NPC blobs. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/85 "2010-01-26T20:01:32Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Will scum be able to talk during Night 0? Or more important: **can the scum communicate privately during the Summer or do they have to ponder to themselves?** If not, no Night Zero would mean scum start without some preplanned strategy talk or perhaps known special powers of others (like in last game IIRC). ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/86 "2010-01-26T20:14:57Z")
Mechanically speaking, this is going to be an interesting game just for the tradeoff of “slay a known bad factor that’s acting randomly” vs. “hunt for scum”. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/87 "2010-01-26T21:25:14Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Mechanically speaking, this is going to be an interesting game just for the tradeoff of “slay a known bad factor that’s acting randomly” vs. “hunt for scum”. I thought so too at first. But on inspection, not really. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/88 "2010-01-26T21:31:00Z")
Well, I’ve re-read and I’m confused. I figure I’ll get lynched if I don’t bring this up before the game starts. People will figure I’m just being dense, but I really am dense. I don’t get the “spawn” aspect of the game. You said,“Spawn are effectively characters in the game which are not played by any player.” \*\*So they aren’t even one of us? They are not a secret scum who doens’t even know he/she is scum and is behaving randomly? \*\* Help the dumb, ignorant Mahaloth understand the Spawn aspect of the game so he can play more wisely. Feel free to talk to me like I’m 4 years old if it helps. Oh, and you can mock me if you choose. However, it is very wise to make sure any misunderstandings are dealt with before we get going, so don’t be too upset with me. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/89 "2010-01-26T21:39:46Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Mechanically speaking, this is going to be an interesting game just for the tradeoff of “slay a known bad factor that’s acting randomly” vs. “hunt for scum”. That was my thought, too. I mean, if we don’t know who scum are going in which we don’t, wouldn’t the safe bet be just to kill the known element? At least on summer one? ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/90 "2010-01-26T21:54:32Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Well, I’ve re-read and I’m confused. I figure I’ll get lynched if I don’t bring this up before the game starts. People will figure I’m just being dense, but I really am dense. > > I don’t get the “spawn” aspect of the game. You said,“Spawn are effectively characters in the game which are not played by any player.” > > \*\*So they aren’t even one of us? They are not a secret scum who doens’t even know he/she is scum and is behaving randomly? \*\* > > Help the dumb, ignorant Mahaloth understand the Spawn aspect of the game so he can play more wisely. Feel free to talk to me like I’m 4 years old if it helps. > > Oh, and you can mock me if you choose. However, it is very wise to make sure any misunderstandings are dealt with before we get going, so don’t be too upset with me. > > Thanks! Each faction of this game starts with each player of that faction having the ability to place one vote per game. The traditional scum faction starts this game with the number of scum players that are assigned to correspond to doper usernames, and one Non-player-character known as a Scum™. As the game progresses, the scum faction gets more Scum™ via replication. The Scum™ have a voting mechanic that is randomly determined for each of their number, per the rules that Chronos has previously posted. As each Scum™ has a vote that is always going to fall on random Town players, there are two incentives for the town to vote to lyse a Scum™: a) to decrease the total number in the scum faction in order to meet their win condition b) to decrease the number of random vote variables in the game and have a better chance at having visibility into voting intentions. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/91 "2010-01-26T21:54:47Z")
> [@](#): > > So they aren’t even one of us? They are not a secret scum who doens’t even know he/she is scum and is behaving randomly? Spawn exist only on paper. None of you will have “spawn” as your role. The fact that no human actually controls a Spawn is why it is necessary for the Spawn to act randomly. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/92 "2010-01-26T21:57:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Each faction of this game starts with each player of that faction having the ability to place one vote per game. The traditional scum faction starts this game with the number of scum players that are assigned to correspond to doper usernames, and one Non-player-character known as a Scum™. As the game progresses, the scum faction gets more Scum™ via replication. The Scum™ have a voting mechanic that is randomly determined for each of their number, per the rules that Chronos has previously posted. As each Scum™ has a vote that is always going to fall on random Town players, there are two incentives for the town to vote to lyse a Scum™: a) to decrease the total number in the scum faction in order to meet their win condition b) to decrease the number of random vote variables in the game and have a better chance at having visibility into voting intentions. A few errors, here: First, the Scum are actual human players, just like in any Mafia game. The mindless things that get produced over the course of the game are Spawn. Second, every player can cast up to two votes, not one, and the top two vote-getters are killed. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/93 "2010-01-26T21:58:29Z")
Per usual, I’m grasping conceptually if not in any other way. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/94 "2010-01-26T22:01:32Z")
So we could vote off both spawn to start off with, or two scum or a spawn and a scum? What happens if we get rid of the spawn to begin with–can they come back? ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/95 "2010-01-26T22:03:44Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Help the dumb, ignorant Mahaloth understand the Spawn aspect of the game so he can play more wisely. Feel free to talk to me like I’m 4 years old if it helps. I think the Spawn thing is a red-herring, so its not at all surprising that it is confusing. At first it looks like town gets a nifty tool in being able to kill two players in one cycle. But the Spawn mechanic pretty much negates that benefit. In my opinion, Town should lyse the one and only Spawn every Summer and lyse one Player. I can only see very narrow and unlikely scenarios where lysing two players makes sense. That case is where two players are both known to be scum and are believe to possess Winter Actions. Other than that, I see no reason to lyse two players during Summer. Well, I can think of one, but I discount it as a possibility: If there exists a vigilante type town player who can kill spawn during winter, then killing two players and leaving spawn alive for winter makes sense. Town Kills two players and the Vig kills the Spawn during Winter. Yay! However, I discount this possibility because the benefit is so large that it is unbalancing. In other words, a spawn killing town role is so powerful, I don’t believe it exists. In summary, every Summer that the game is not over, a new Spawn spawns. That means for every Summer we must lyse one Spawn on average. If we skip lyseing a spawn one summer then we MUST lyse TWO spawn during a subsequent summer. Therefore, there is little reason not to simply lyse one spawn every Summer. What does this mean for the game? On the surface not much. But! It totally sucks for town: In a typical game, endgame is 1 scum versus 2 town. This is the ultimate endgame situation. The slight variant, 1 scum versus 3 town, is also endgame, but converts to 1v2 with a Town-led NO LYNCH. Anyway, in THIS game, with spawn, we can never get to 1v2 without losing because every summer begins with a new spawn. Yikes! That means a summer with 1 scum and 2 town is a scum win (1 scum + 1 spawn). So a Summer with 1 scum and 3 town is the ultimate endgame situation. 1 scum and 4 town is also endgame, but converts to 1v3 with a town led Lynch Spawn and No Lynch… which I’m not even sure is possible since the option to vote no lynch is not included in the rules and the spawn will randomly vote anyway. So in the end the entire spawn thing boils down to a standard game where the scum win condition is slightly earlier. That is, assuming Town doesn’t have Winter actions that can eliminate Spawn. But as I stated earlier, such a mechanic is overly-powerful for Town. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/96 "2010-01-26T22:08:33Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > So we could vote off both spawn to start off with, or two scum or a spawn and a scum? What happens if we get rid of the spawn to begin with–can they come back? Wait, what? I was under the impression that the game would start with 1 spawn. If the game starts with 2 then that is just borked. We would HAVE to start the game with lysing both spawn on Day One. Then scum would kill a townie and we would start day 2 with one new spawn and it would be as if we were at Day One with one less town player. Which I guess could be done, but we might as well just start with a bloody Night Zero. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/97 "2010-01-26T22:10:09Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Wait, what? > > I was under the impression that the game would start with 1 spawn. If the game starts with 2 then that is just borked. We would HAVE to start the game with lysing both spawn on Day One. Then scum would kill a townie and we would start day 2 with one new spawn and it would be as if we were at Day One with one less town player. Which I guess could be done, but we might as well just start with a bloody Night Zero. I guess I read wrong. Okay, so the thing about spawn is they don’t reproduce or anything but if we just decide to ignore them they could overproduce and there’d be too many of them? Is that it? Okay… ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/98 "2010-01-26T22:10:12Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Anyway, in THIS game, with spawn, we can never get to 1v2 without losing because every summer begins with a new spawn. Yikes! That means a summer with 1 scum and 2 town is a scum win (1 scum + 1 spawn). Not so. Tie numbers aren’t a win for either team, as scum need a strict majority to win in this set-up. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/99 "2010-01-26T22:12:47Z")
Could we please not discuss the strategy implications of the setup until we’re assured that we can’t trust each other? ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/100 "2010-01-26T22:22:22Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > Not so. Tie numbers aren’t a win for either team, as scum need a strict majority to win in this set-up. Ah. Well then, it is very nearly identical to a game without spawn at all. With the teeny tiny provision, that at 1v2 scum can force a tie vote and possibly win (by coin toss) even though town correctly ID the last scum. Ick. scum being able to push such a tie at 1v2 is GUARANTEED: T1 votes Spawn and scum T2 votes Spawn and scum scum votes T1 and T2. Spawn will vote either scum and T1, scum and T2 or T1 and T2, which means at least one Town will be tied with scum (or spawn) the lysing. Giving scum a 50% chance to win, even though Town IDed the correct final scum. Ick. Better than what I was thinking, but still squicky with the tie problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202.md?page=6)