# Scum mafia: On Cecil pond \[Game Over\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 24, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202 "2010-01-24T05:10:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 54
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1061 "2010-02-11T18:51:30Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > So, at the time we will know if votes on Scuba count or not, will be the exact moment we can’t vote or unvote him. > > Even if he is replaced, the Role is what we are voting, not the Player. > > Given the time of the day, I’m keeping the vote on Scuba. Join me if you want, but I can find no better “Safe” move than this. I’m not getting this? It looks like Scuba will be replaced with someone else (or mod killed if no one found) which would mean the role stays in the game. With not so subtle hints he might be a mason. **Unvote KellyCriterion** I would still like a bit better response to my case from him. **Vote Meeko** For placing a weird, safe vote at this point. I’m currently looking to place my other vote for either **Story** or **fluiddruid**. I agree that the claimed drawback is a pretty serious one (I hadn’t thought either), but I don’t see why scum benefits from it unless they could force him to kill. [QUOTE=Cookies;] It was nice playing with you and feeling like I generally understood what you were talking about, Meeko. While it lasted, at least. [/QUOTE] Am I missing someone and has **Meeko** requested a sub or are you saying you think Meeko voting is likely to get him killed? ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1062 "2010-02-11T18:54:43Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > Am I missing someone and has **Meeko** requested a sub or are you saying you think Meeko voting is likely to get him killed? Cookies is saying that while Meeko was previously making sense, he isn’t now. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1063 "2010-02-11T18:54:46Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > I unvoted someone that now believe is Town. How does that make me a bad person? _Why_ do you now believe he is town? You aren’t the least bit concerned that storyteller might be lying? Look. I’m not sure what storyteller is. I suspect he is scum, but I’m not sure. Similarly, if I were to think storyteller was Town, I also would not be sure. Your level of assuredness makes me want to lyse you. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1064 "2010-02-11T18:57:45Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > Ties are resolved randomly. Chronos has said this multiple times. \*\*So help me out here then Rysto, if ties are resolved randomly, why does my forcing a tie become an issue? Why move to the word “force” over “reconsidered a bad vote”? \*\* And to Sach: No one has counterclaimed Story. I think we can both agree he is a Vig. I have been riding him hard to offer up the drawback. Not knowing allignment does hurt town. At the same time, it also helps Vig. Given the historic record of the amount of substitutions in nearly every Mafia game I have played, TOGETHER with the fact that we each have two votes, I don’t see the Drawback as anywhere near as bad as Story thinks it is. Story is Vig. I am willing to give him an an unvote benefit of the doubt on if he is Pond or not. Yes, I don’t want to get vigged. So there is that there in the mix. But, frankly, at this point, \*\*I wonder who I have to fear more, Story, or Rysto and Sach. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1065 "2010-02-11T18:58:01Z")
I’m saying that Meeko’s posts have become disjointed and difficult to parse. That is all. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1066 "2010-02-11T19:01:38Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > So help me out here then Rysto, if ties are resolved randomly, why does my forcing a tie become an issue? Why move to the word “force” over “reconsidered a bad vote”? If there is a one vote difference there is a small chance the leader doesn’t get lynched (Spawn must randomly vote runner-up and then the tie must go to that player as well), versus a 50% chance either of the tied players get lynched. > [@](#): > > No one has counterclaimed Story. I think we can both agree he is a Vig. I have been riding him hard to offer up the drawback. A vigilante doesn’t counter-claim, he counter kills the fake claimer. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1067 "2010-02-11T19:02:05Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Story is Vig. I’m saying you can’t know that. > [@](#): > > I am willing to give him an an unvote benefit of the doubt on if he is Pond or not. This is more reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1068 "2010-02-11T19:06:10Z")
If a person gets subbed, it does not change their alignment or role. A Scummy Scuba on Day 1 means a Scummy whatever on Day 2, and a scummy subbed player on Day 3. Sach, why do you think Story is not a vig? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1069 "2010-02-11T19:07:18Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Sach, why do you think Story is not a vig? I think **Sach** is saying we can’t know either way. He could be a vig; he could be lying. Right now there’s no way of telling for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1070 "2010-02-11T19:08:14Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > I’m saying that Meeko’s posts have become disjointed and difficult to parse. That is all. And I am asking for examples so that I can help both of us understand the other. You guys obviously know I have it in me to be coherent. I don’t see where I got off track here. Today has gotten real long, real fast. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1071 "2010-02-11T19:08:51Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Sach, why do you think Story is not a vig? He might be. He might not be. I don’t know. I’ve outlined my case as to why I think storyteller is scum. Being scum precludes being the town vig. I think the more important question is why do you think storyteller is the town vig? Why are you so sure? ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1072 "2010-02-11T19:09:21Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I think **Sach** is saying we can’t know either way. He could be a vig; he could be lying. Right now there’s no way of telling for sure. And we all have our own opinions. I don’t see why mine should have more weight on it, than any other. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1073 "2010-02-11T19:10:42Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > A vigilante doesn’t counter-claim, he counter kills the fake claimer. Peeker would beg to differ. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1074 "2010-02-11T19:13:17Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > **I am a Vigilante.** In color terms, I am an **Amoeba**. I kill in the Winter. I cannot kill Spawn. I did not attempt a kill last Winter, and it is highly likely that I will _never_ attempt a kill, as the use of my power involves a very significant drawback that I would prefer not to disclose. > [@storyteller0910](#): > > Well, there’s the reason. There are specific and unlikely circumstances under which I might attempt a kill. If those circumstances happen to arise - which again, is probably not likely - I would prefer that there not be a handbook on how to handle me available to the Scum. > [@storyteller0910](#): > > If I kill, neither the role nor the alignment of the player I kill will be publicly revealed. I don’t see a way for scum to handle **Storyteller** to exploit this drawback. It happens when he kills regards of what scum do. I don’t see the reason to not reveal it. It might give scum confidence he won’t kill so they won’t bother block or redirect him, but Story explicitly stated he was unlikely to kill. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1075 "2010-02-11T19:15:09Z")
Based on the lateness of the hour, I decided to post some things in case I don’t get a chance in future. I have a meeting starting very shortly which is planned to end after the day is over, for one, and in any case, no matter how things shake out, my days are numbered. Even if I don’t win the lynch vote, if I’m right, I’m basically confirmed town and a strong target for a scum kill; if I’m wrong, I’ll very, very likely be lynched tomorrow in vengeance and as the easiest target. As such, I feel the need to weigh in as I can, and if by some lucky break I survive to next Summer, I’ll be happy to answer questions about any of the below. So here goes. In general: The late votes are bad, bad, bad. Clearly they can’t all be scum players but this simply cannot be allowed on future Days or Town is hosed. I strongly suggest that Town players strongly try to get people to vote and discuss voting earlier in the Day. Last minute, scantly-defended-and-too-late-to-adequately-defend-against votes are simply a problem. An even greater problem is the spawn issue. I know we’re tired of it. It’s undoubtedly tiresome to debate. But the lack of consensus is destructive – just look at what happened, with some people getting twice as many votes as others and not even having the decency to defend their actions. This is **dangerous** as a state of affairs, especially in close votes, and even moreso given the random voting of Spawn. I realize consensus will be difficult but giving a free out to some players to get double votes is not prudent going forward. Further, my thoughts on other players, such as they are: **Rysto** : I think Sachertorte had a good point when he said “The idea that a scummy Rysto would vote for Special Ed for a spurious reason then nightkill him doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. I don’t discount the possibility, but it just seems ‘off’ to me. I’m not saying that Rysto is Town, but that the circumstances of his vote don’t really point in either direction.” I’m really, really tempted to point the finger at Rysto; I’ll admit that OMGUS reactions are my personal weakness in Mafia, and I have tried very hard this game to be equally suspicious of anyone. I do think that some of his arguments are ill-founded (naturally) but I will say in his defense that he at least tried to substantively defend his vote, and he did go out on a bit of a limb at the time to vote for me. I won’t say that makes him Town but frankly I think there are bigger fish. **KellyCriterion** : I honestly don’t see the case. Kelly is playing in exactly the way that I expect a newbie to play. It’s not necessary a Town tell but I just think Kelly’s play so far is neutral. Barring some new information that makes a good case, I think it’s probably prudent to leave Kelly alone. It’s simply too easy, if Kelly is – as I suspect – town, for anyone to drum up a case based more on inexperience and, thus, inconsistency than on actual scum behaviors, costing us a head. Further, with no offense to Kelly but a newbie scum will slip up eventually. Scum is hard to play. I don’t really buy Kelly’s case against **Mahaloth** (post #838) either, though. I do agree that Mahaloth could do a better job of substantiating votes but there’s a lot of game left to go, and I’m sure he can be watched. If I’d have had more time, I would have liked to spend more time looking at Mahaloth. **Drain Bead** : I’ll admit, my original plan was that Drain Bead was scum, but I find the role claim credible enough to consider Drain Bead close-to-confirmed-town. If someone else claims communal organism later, it’ll have to be evaluated, but considering the relative lack of pressure Drain Bead was under I’m doubtful that this claim was false. **Zeriel** : Way too quiet, and nearly silent on substantial matters. Speak up. IIRC this is very unlike you, though as I recall you were a doctor or something in one of my games, so maybe that’s what spurred more involvement, but still… **DiggitCamara** : What I said for Zeriel goes double for you. And you voted even more last minute than Zeriel and on spurious grounds. You’d be someone I’d be investigating more thoroughly tomorrow for sure. **Alka Seltzer** : I find myself in agreement with him the vast majority of the time, which at once makes me terribly suspicious and somewhat trusting. A prudent, reasoned voice can be often be a scum voice. That said, this isn’t damning by any means, I just am leery of falling into too much trust too early. On the bright side, I don’t see any signs of withholding judgement until the end of the day which is probably one of Town’s bigger liabilities right now. **Meeko** : I found your vote for me a bit weird. It really comes down to echoing one or two things that rysto said and then summing up with why you don’t want to lynch Story. It’s not a referendum of me vs. Story, and echoing others’ words doesn’t really add anything substantial. I’d like to see more of your own original thoughts but I’m leaning scum on you. Post is here: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12103950&postcount=987](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12103950&postcount=987) Now you’ve since retracted that vote and voted for Scuba Ben, which is, in my opinion, pretty weak. You don’t have a case against him – saying he didn’t answer your question is a bit meaningless since he hasn’t visited the board at all. Why bother? Do some research and find a strong alternate candidate. Picking someone who’s almost certainly going to be modkilled strikes me as more likely to be scummy than townie. You’re another person who ought to bear close scrutiny, as a few have agitated for just now. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1076 "2010-02-11T19:15:43Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Peeker would beg to differ. This is in reference to _Colorless_? I don’t remember someone fake claiming vigilante but **peeker** was blocked consistently there no? That’s a different situation to what we have here. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1077 "2010-02-11T19:16:05Z")
What if the scum have a similar power? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1078 "2010-02-11T19:18:12Z")
> [@Natlaw](#): > > This is in reference to _Colorless_? I don’t remember someone fake claiming vigilante but **peeker** was blocked consistently there no? That’s a different situation to what we have here. Yeah, **pedescribe** claimed Vig, but then **peeker** counterclaimed, revealing **ped** as the serial killer. We scum never killed off **peeker** preferring instead to role block him and use the kill on someone else. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1079 "2010-02-11T19:18:17Z")
I mean a power that masks the flip on a kill. They could use it to potentially frame Story for a kill he didn’t make. A WAG, but a WAG that seems within reason. ---
**Author:** ![Natlaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a88e57/32.png) [@Natlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Natlaw)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1080 "2010-02-11T19:21:50Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > I mean a power that masks the flip on a kill. They could use it to potentially frame Story for a kill he didn’t make. A WAG, but a WAG that seems within reason. Possible of course, but as mentioned it would be a really powerful scum power. But then there might be a Coroner (investigate the dead for alignment/role) to counter as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202.md?page=53) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202.md?page=55)