# Scum mafia: On Cecil pond \[Game Over\] **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 24, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202 "2010-01-24T05:10:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 74
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1461 "2010-02-24T13:52:08Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > My role as shown above is a direct copy/paste. > > But how could the spawn be voting in winter? We have killed the only spawn every summer. The new spawn does not show up until the start of the subsequent summer? That is a good point. This means that _something_ is inconsistent here. Either our moderator has directly mislead us in some way, or you are lying. Uh oh. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1462 "2010-02-24T13:53:09Z")
“Misled.” Not “Mislead.” ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1463 "2010-02-24T13:53:46Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > My role as shown above is a direct copy/paste. > > But how could the spawn be voting in winter? We have killed the only spawn every summer. The new spawn does not show up until the start of the subsequent summer? The thing that stands out a bit more than the rest from your role is: > [@KellyCriterion's role](#): > > As such, you are better placed than most to detect the changes made by hidden activity Seems like one of the guesses is right: you’re detecting Nighttime activity. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1464 "2010-02-24T13:58:46Z")
By the way: I’m sorry I haven’t been a more active participant this Day. My job is kind of on the stressy side right now. I hope I’ll be able to post more substantially toNight. I’ll probably take a deeper dive into the voting patterns thus far. But a quick glance tells me this time we aren’t having too many red flags in there. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1465 "2010-02-24T13:58:51Z")
If **Kelly** is being truthful, is this all that helpful? I can’t see why we really need to know how spawn is voting at night. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1466 "2010-02-24T14:01:08Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > That is a good point. This means that _something_ is inconsistent here. Either our moderator has directly mislead us in some way, or you are lying. > > Uh oh. **So does the Spawn pop up at the end of Winter, vote, and then appear to the rest of us at Dawn?** ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1467 "2010-02-24T14:09:41Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > Screw it. > > Sach, you have been pinging me as well. > > I did not come forward yet because I was going to go, frankly, cook up some more reasons on you. > > The backlog we have is amazing. > > I think you are fishing, Sach. Gah! So now we have a Mason-led bandwagon on me? How is this a good idea? What do you hope to accomplish and learn? Look, you fucked up. I didn’t expose the masons, you did. My pointing out you did is not an excuse to shift the blame onto me. Meeko, you’re a mason who voted for and was voted against by a large portion of the population. The fact that you didn’t take this into account when you claimed for no reason was a mistake. My pointing it out is to note our situation: our masons are very exposed. The idea that scum aren’t going to catch it is ridiculous, and that my words have done us harm is… Gah! > [@USCDiver](#): > > I can appreciate the ‘poke the lurker’ strategy, but I don’t think ‘lynch the lurker’ is a good idea unless you (generic) are completely in the dark as to a better candidate. I won’t make excuses for my low post numbers because that’s how I always play this game. I don’t post unless I have something to say that I think will be constructive to the Town. It seems like whenever I see something I really want to comment on, someone else has always made my points for me by the time I get to the end of the thread. I don’t care for this response. I don’t like the idea that I’m supposed to guess what USCDiver is thinking, or that simply because someone else said what USCDiver was thinking that he doesn’t need to speak up. I have no idea what USCDiver thinks we can do with that. It opens himself up to a large amount of flexibility to avoid controversy and sets himself up with zero accountability. Is he scum? I don’t know. That’s kind of the point. But what he is doing certainly isn’t making me think he is Town. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1468 "2010-02-24T14:26:06Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > My role as shown above is a direct copy/paste. > > But how could the spawn be voting in winter? We have killed the only spawn every summer. The new spawn does not show up until the start of the subsequent summer? KellyCriterion, could you explain your thoughts both upon receiving your role and after each PM you received? What were you expectations upon receiving your role? Did the subsequent PM information meet those expectations? Why do you feel that Spawn vote in the Winter in accordance with how they voted during the Summer? You mentioned that you got a list prior to the single name. Is this list exactly the same as the Spawn Summer vote? Did you not realize this? Perhaps you should post all the PMs you have received from Chronos. This is the last evening we will have to engage KellyCriterion. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1469 "2010-02-24T14:41:56Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > If **Kelly** is being truthful, is this all that helpful? I can’t see why we really need to know how spawn is voting at night. Take a closer look at the rules. At Night, Spawn will only vote for non-Scum. if the Spawn vote for a player, that player is not Scum. Thus, if Kelly is telling the truth, Oredigger is now cleared as potential Scum. That’s kind of useful, but only kind of. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1470 "2010-02-24T15:00:28Z")
OK, so here’s the thing. The rules say: > [@](#): > > The Scum reproduce quickly. At the beginning of the game, there will be one Spawn in the game, and at the beginning of every Summer, if there is at least one Scum or Spawn left alive, a new Spawn will appear. Thus the Spawn should appear at the beginning of each Summer. This means that if we kill Spawn during the Summer - as we have done each time - there should be no Spawn votes at all during the Winter, as the previous Spawn is dead and can’t vote and the new Spawn doesn’t arrive until the beginning of Summer. This is mod-provided information and therefore guaranteed to be true, and it directly and unresolvably contradicts Kelly’s role claim. Unless **Chronos** tells us that the rules are incorrect, I don’t see any way that Kelly is being truthful here. If Kelly is Scum, though, this is a very poorly thought-out role claim. Surely the Scum would have known that there were no random Spawn votes affecting their decisions? Something just doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1471 "2010-02-24T15:01:12Z")
Hmm, **Kelly** , your role is making less and less sense to me. From **Chronos** ’ OP: > [@Chronos](#): > > At the beginning of the game, there will be one Spawn in the game, and **at the beginning of every Summer** , if there is at least one Scum or Spawn left alive, **a new Spawn will appear**. And from a clarification post #28 (pre-Summer 1): > [@Chronos](#): > > 3.\*\* At the end of the Summer, each Spawn will randomly select two players (including possibly Scum, but not Spawn)\*\*. At the end of the Winter, each Spawn will place a vote on the Scum board for one randomly-selected non-Scum player. This does mean that, if there are more Spawn than Scum, the Scum might find themselves killing someone other than who they’d like, but the Scum will never accidentally kill a Scum during the Winter. Bolding mine. My understanding of the mechanics of the game are that if we kill Spawn every Summer there is no Spawn to make a Winter vote. Chronos gives every indication that the Spawn random votes occur _during Summer_ and not in some quasi-Autumn time and that they don’t reSpawn until the following Summer. As far as I can tell we haven’t had any Spawn making a Winter vote at all, so that contradicts what you’ve quoted as your Role PM. So unless Chronos has fucked up or is fucking with us, I’m going to have to agree with sachertorte, et al, that your changing of your story multiple times is very scummy. **vote KelleyCriterion** ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1472 "2010-02-24T15:03:53Z")
Yeah: **vote KellyCriterion** Now, if Chronos comes in here and tells us that actually, the Spawn arrive in Winter and we just don’t see them until Summer, that’s going to be a big deal from a win condition standpoint, because it means we’ll have half a mislynch less than we thought we had. Comically, if this is the case, my opinion on double-lysing changes substantially. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1473 "2010-02-24T15:04:44Z")
Ugh, clearly I agree with \*\*storyteller \*\*here. One other thought though… what if this is her true but Scum aligned power that she’s trying to contort into a Town aligned power. Maybe she IS supposed to get information on a Spawn Winter vote, but since there hasn’t been one, she’s making stuff up. She claims that “At the beginning of every Summer, you will receive a PM detailing the vote made by one of the Spawn the preceding Winter.” Getting just a name is hardly ‘detailing’. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1474 "2010-02-24T15:12:27Z")
USCDiver, the scum presumably already know who the Spawn vote(not that they’d care, really). It sounds like Kelly just made this claim up. **Unvote Diggit Vote Kelly** I maintain my suspicion of Diggit, but bird in the hand and all that. ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1475 "2010-02-24T15:12:31Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Take a closer look at the rules. At Night, Spawn will only vote for non-Scum. if the Spawn vote for a player, that player is not Scum. Thus, if Kelly is telling the truth, Oredigger is now cleared as potential Scum. > > That’s kind of useful, but only kind of. Kelly has a list of confirmed pondies? I would say this is very useful, especially if we could confirm Kelly by some method other than lysing. My gut says that I still believe him. ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1476 "2010-02-24T15:17:25Z")
NETA: After posting, I see that the questions about whether spawns exist and can vote during winter. Ugh. I am afraid this does look like Kelly is fibbing. I wonder what this means for Oredigger? ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1477 "2010-02-24T15:20:55Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Now, if Chronos comes in here and tells us that actually, the Spawn arrive in Winter and we just don’t see them until Summer, that’s going to be a big deal from a win condition standpoint, because it means we’ll have half a mislynch less than we thought we had. Comically, if this is the case, my opinion on double-lysing changes substantially. I disagree with the win-condition point (or at least I’m not understanding it). From a win-condition point of view, I see no difference between Spawn showing up at the end of Winter versus the Beginning of Summer. Either way, nScum+nSpawn \> nTown will occur before Town has any chance to do anything about it. In other words, losing at the end of Winter is not substantively different than losing at the Beginning of Summer. As for KellyCriterion, I’m inclined to vote for him as well based on the changing story and inconsistency in the claim. But I think we can wait to hear from Chronos (or not hear from Chronos). ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1478 "2010-02-24T15:26:49Z")
This **Kelly** thing is curiouser and curiouser. The whole thing sort of pings my WTF radar, but I don’t know anymore. I’m leaning towards revoting **Kelly**. The whole thing does kind of smack of a hastily put together power role that **Kelly** can’t keep straight out of noobness. Though would scum manage to come up with something like rotifier? You’d think they’d come up with a straight up doc/cop role to try and bait the real cop/doc to come out like we did as scum in the colorless mafia game. Though this is a bit different in that we don’t really know what roles are out there. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1479 "2010-02-24T15:29:25Z")
Maybe Kelly is a third-party actor of some kind. This would explain the role-claim that doesn’t fit with what we know, as well as his confusion over the when-Spawn-appear thing and address **Freudian’s** point about a doc/cop claim being a better bet to draw out a Town power role. If Kelly is third-party, his own survival is (probably) paramount, and claiming a role that is unlikely to be counterclaimed is not a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202/1480 "2010-02-24T15:31:14Z")
(If Chronos does confirm what we expect, by the way, I could try to eat Kelly. If he’s definitely lying, then whether he’s third-party or Scum is not the most important bit of information in the world. Of course, I could still be blocked, redirected, or what have you, but it’s an option). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202.md?page=73) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scum-mafia-on-cecil-pond-game-over/526202.md?page=75)