# "Scuttling", as seen on 'Mad Men' **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 10, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230 "2010-07-10T17:19:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230/21 "2010-07-11T08:07:01Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > I can’t speak to scuttling but in [this clip from the movie American Graffitti (about 2:36)](http://www.guba.com/watch/3000016560) shows the male character Terry the Toad getting pantsed in the parking lot of Mel’s Drive-In. That was during the same period that \*Mad Men \*took place (and the movie was made back in the early '70s), so I’d guess having one’s underwear revealed in public was a source of juvenile humor for both sexes. If we’re citing fictional works that depict the fifties/early sixties, can I cite the reputable source, _Grease_, and the mooning scene? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230/22 "2010-07-11T09:38:25Z")
Hey guys, I said I knew I might be wrong. And I said “seems” several times. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230/23 "2010-07-11T09:52:23Z")
Scuttling? I always thought it was called ‘sharking’. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230/24 "2010-07-11T18:49:14Z")
Also, **Chuck** , just asking, not asserting, but I’ve read a **lot** about Elvis, they were not hagiographies, and I’ve never heard that bottle anecdote. What is your source on that? Wiki uses the term “rumor”. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230/25 "2010-07-12T16:33:18Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > AFAIK, no one’s said the subject of scuttling came up in the [Clarence Thomas] hearings… Second paragraph of the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230/26 "2010-07-12T17:01:12Z")
According to first-hand testimony given to me, in my office in the 1940’s and 1950’s things very close to, or exactly like the described acts in the OP happened from time to time. And according to this same testimony, the women victims were supposed to just laugh it off - if they wanted to keep their jobs. It never happened to married women, only single women, typically very young single women. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230/27 "2010-07-12T21:46:17Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Amid all this, publisher and feminist icon Helen Gurley Brown wrote an opinion piece stating that women were becoming too sensitive, and cited scuttling as an example of a harmless, charming practice that no one minded back in her day. IIRC, her description differed slightly from the ‘Mad Men’ portrayal: I believe she said the woman was undressed until she was only wearing her underwear, at which point she feigned fainting and the activity ceased. I remember the actual HGB column and the way she described it was that the “gal” would be chased around and when cornered someone would reach upskirt and yank her undies down (…off? to her ankles, knees? She didn’t say, just that “de-pantying was the sole goal and nothing went further”… a phrase like that sticks with you!). I recall no mentioning of stripping down the person. And yes, that was the last and only mention of the “scuttle game” I saw in mainstream media until Mad Men. ---
**Author:** ![SmithCommaJohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@SmithCommaJohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmithCommaJohn)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230/28 "2010-07-12T23:55:02Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Keep in mind that while they were still in the office it was a party after hours and off the clock; it’s not as if **Mad-Men** was portraying it as normal everyday workplace behavior. And the participants were also intoxicated. Managment wasn’t even present (though I suspect they’d be more upset with Joan raiding the liquor supply cabinet than the scuttling, boys will be boys after all). But who could stay mad at Joan? ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230/29 "2010-07-13T12:12:48Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Second paragraph of the OP? In the OP, I said: > [@F. U. Shakespeare](#): > > I first heard of scuttling during the Clarence Thomas confimation hearings circa 1990. You replied: [QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] Scuttling, eh? I don’t remember this coming up in the Clarence Thomas hearings at all, and have never even heard of it before this moment. [/quote] To which I replied: > [@F. U. Shakespeare](#): > > AFAIK, no one’s said the subject of scuttling came up in the hearings. > > Helen Gurley Brown’s commentary on the subject of sexual harrassment (which DID come up in the Thomas hearings) contained her (apparently increasingly solitary) memory of the practice. The subject of scuttling did not come up in the hearings, but (as I said in the OP) was brought up during the hearings, as a result of the ensuing public discussions of sexual harrassment. This may seem like nitpicking, but in trying to track down hard-to-find references to this supposed practice, it’s important to be specific about where they came from. > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > According to first-hand testimony given to me, in my office in the 1940’s and 1950’s things very close to, or exactly like the described acts in the OP happened from time to time. > > And according to this same testimony, the women victims were supposed to just laugh it off - if they wanted to keep their jobs. It never happened to married women, only single women, typically very young single women. Interesting. Thank you for this. Any idea what part of the country this occurred in? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230/30 "2010-07-13T13:53:54Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Interesting. Thank you for this. Any idea what part of the country this occurred in? Considering I work in that company, yes…Kansas City. I think young folks today don’t really have any concept of just how toxic _some_ workplaces were to women, especially pretty young women, in ther period post-WW2 to the late 60’s. _Especially_ in offices where male testosterone ruled with an iron fist. There have been whole books written on the institutionalized culture in some offices of young, single women being seen basically as office concubines. The shopworn trope of “fat old male executive has pretty young stenographer sit on his lap to take dictation” (and presumably give him a handy-J if she wants a good review this quarter) has a basis in reality. I’ve spoken to more than a few older women who were victims of such treatment. Even married women were not immune, although it was much less common. After all, there was the chance hubby would show up at work with a 12-gauge after his wife reported on one-too-many butt pinchings. I cannot remember the name of the firm, but there was a scandal in the early/mid 1990’s of an engineering firm (a competitor of mine) where they ended up in court over a sexual harassment suit, and it was revelaed that the top brass had _purposefully_ hired secretaries with the understanding of the secretaries that in return for getting a near 6-figure salary, they were expected to be…well, prostitutes, to be blunt. IIRC the women actually signed a contract saying as much (which presumably was not kept in their file…). I remember being shocked on hearing it, and being doubly shocked at hearing the ribald talk from male co-workers who were saying things like “damn, wouldn’t that be the life…” and “huh, she doesn’t look worth $80k a a year” (referring to a photo in the paper of one of the abused women). :rolleyes: I’ll see if I can Google up the firm over lunch today. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230/31 "2010-07-13T15:54:16Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > Now, I was born in 1970, so I never knew the '50s, but I’ve had plenty of time to read about them, and watch movies and TV shows, and ask people who were there then. The impression I get, and I fully admit I could be wrong, is that people back then really seemed to relish creating sexual tension, and creating mystery. > > … It also seems that since everyone was in such a continual state of sexual frustration, that a man or group of men wouldn’t be able to undress a woman down to her underwear (even bearing in mind that that probably included a girdle). They’d either stop at raising the skirt, for fear of losing control, or they **would** lose control and it would become a gang rape. It took so little (“I keep my undies in the ice box!” while she’s completely hidden by a planter) to arouse men in those days, I don’t think they’d take part in a melee unless they planned to follow through. Again, I could be wrong. You bookend your remarks with disclaimers, but this really is a masterwork of misconception and mythmaking. The 1950s were not an era of such extreme innocence and sexual frustration that men were like a switch with two settings: unsexed and uncontrolled rapist. Many men of the era had served in the military and had had plenty of opportunity for extra-marital dalliances. They weren’t pathetically hard-up cases who would lose their minds at a mere sight of lace. Pre-marital sex was quite common and unplanned pregnancies usually resulted in quick marriages or “visits to the country,” where childbirth and adoption would be handled discreetly. There was a recent book about the thousands and thousands of young women in the mid-20th century who were forced to give up their out-of-wedlock children for adoption. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230/32 "2010-07-13T16:12:20Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Considering I work in that company, yes…Kansas City. > > I think young folks today don’t really have any concept of just how toxic _some_ workplaces were to women, especially pretty young women, in ther period post-WW2 to the late 60’s. _Especially_ in offices where male testosterone ruled with an iron fist. There have been whole books written on the institutionalized culture in some offices of young, single women being seen basically as office concubines. The shopworn trope of “fat old male executive has pretty young stenographer sit on his lap to take dictation” (and presumably give him a handy-J if she wants a good review this quarter) has a basis in reality. I’ve spoken to more than a few older women who were victims of such treatment. Even married women were not immune, although it was much less common. After all, there was the chance hubby would show up at work with a 12-gauge after his wife reported on one-too-many butt pinchings. I recall the beginning of the women’s lib movement, and after the whole “Fly Me” ad campaign, that some stewardesses complained that being butt-pinched was a regular part of the job and management ignored the complaints. That sort of behaviour was standard when the boss tolerated it. Like the rest of society, some organizations were run by “prudes” who believed women deserved respect, and some by the “boys” at the top who had no worried about stopping thehijinks. The office party was notorious because it was a social situation, alcohol was involved, and the usual rules of office decorum don’t apply. it was not a time of repression so much as a polite veneer; the naive belives everything was rosy and light, and teh cynics knew that when the curtains were drawn all sorts of sexual and nasty things happened. They just did not make the news or impeachment hearings. IIRC, some reporter once made the remark about JFK’s recreational habits (reported many many years later) “This guy’s going to do for fucking what Eisenhower did for golf.” I do have to wonder about the “scuttling” story (which I’ve never heard of the term before) for a simple reason. I’m certainly not an expert in 1950’s women’s undergarments, but with the girdle, garter belt, stockings, etc. is is that easy for a women in a formal-dress occasion to be “de-pantied” with just a tug? As for the Clarence Thomas thing, to get off topic, I often wondered why, if he was an out-and-out sexual bully, why a lot more women did not come forward? I would expect him to be more mercenary to helpless secretaries than to some up-and-coming qualified lawyer. They couldn’t all be too afraid if the whole power of one of the big parties in the USA would be behind them… ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230/33 "2010-07-13T20:47:08Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > …I’m certainly not an expert in 1950’s women’s undergarments, but with the girdle, garter belt, stockings, etc. is is that easy for a women in a formal-dress occasion to be “de-pantied” with just a tug?.. My WAG is yes for the simple reason that she’d want to be able to go to the bathroom with minimal fuss. A hundred years before Mad Men when Victorian women wore layers of petticoats, a corset, and skirts that reached to the floor they wore “crotchless panties” underneath or went commando. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230/34 "2010-07-13T21:33:52Z")
Underwear hijack (:D) continued > [@alphaboi867](#): > > My WAG is yes for the simple reason that she’d want to be able to go to the bathroom with minimal fuss.A hundred years before Mad Men when Victorian women wore layers of petticoats, a corset, and skirts that reached to the floor they wore “crotchless panties” underneath or went commando. Indeed Victorian drawers as I see by period illustration seem to have been two independent leggings that were laced together at the waist band, with no fixed gusset panels whatsoever. In the time period of the 40s-60s, before the widespread adoption of pantyhose, underpants would often be worn _over_ the garter suspenders, if you used those, for that reason. Also the stockings could just be held up each with an elastic garter, or in summertime you’d go bare-legged. Art Frahm pinups had _some_ limited plausiblilty (do NOT Google at work:p!). Girdles, OTOH, may have been more of a challenge. /Underwear hijack ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230/35 "2010-07-13T21:52:24Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > My WAG is yes for the simple reason that she’d want to be able to go to the bathroom with minimal fuss. A hundred years before Mad Men when Victorian women wore layers of petticoats, a corset, and skirts that reached to the floor they wore “crotchless panties” underneath or went commando. I get going commando but what’s the point of even wearing panties at all if they’re crotchless? And I just realized my last two posts on the SDMB (including this one) were underwear related. Sick **Freudian Slit**! ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230/36 "2010-07-13T22:02:19Z")
At first I was disbelieving, but then reflected on a few points, notably (a)it was an office _party_, not work day; (b) booze was involved; © attitudes were very patronizing and things like groping were common. I’m still a bit disbelieving that stripping down to her underwear was common, but I can see the part about lifting her skirt, or wrestling with her to lift her skirt. There was very much a power dynamic, and women were at the bottom of it. I also think about the thing I’ve only seen in movies (and booze at office parties, held in the office, is one thing I’ve only seen in movies) is someone photocopying his/her butt. I think the example I’m thinking of comes from _Scrooged_, where a young lady is photocopying her paties while sitting on the machine. Then again, to watch TV now one would think that everyone is getting it on with coworkers all the time. I haven’t experience this, either. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230/37 "2010-07-13T22:32:38Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > …I also think about the thing I’ve only seen in movies (and booze at office parties, held in the office, is one thing I’ve only seen in movies) is someone photocopying his/her butt… Leave a bunch of teenage boys in a room with a copier and no adult supervision for awhile. Butts aren’t the only thing that get copied. 😉 Near the end of season 2 Peggy get’s a lecture from a very patronizing technician about how the machine isn’t meant to be _sat on_; so I don’t think copying bodyparts has been around as long as copying machines. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230/38 "2010-07-13T22:46:23Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I cannot remember the name of the firm, but there was a scandal in the early/mid 1990’s of an engineering firm (a competitor of mine) where they ended up in court over a sexual harassment suit, and it was revelaed that the top brass had _purposefully_ hired secretaries with the understanding of the secretaries that in return for getting a near 6-figure salary, they were expected to be…well, prostitutes, to be blunt. I worked for a small software company in the 80’s where the boss did this. I once had to help break up a fist-fight in the lobby when an angry husband showed up after his wife got fired for failing to put out. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230/39 "2010-07-14T01:24:41Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > And I just realized my last two posts on the SDMB (including this one) were underwear related. Sick **Freudian Slit**! Sometimes a pair of crotchless panties is just a pair of crotchless panties… ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230/40 "2010-07-14T02:55:17Z")
Helen Gurley Brown. Isn’t she the one that advocates that a woman’s ideal path to success is to find a rich man and break up his marriage? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scuttling-as-seen-on-mad-men/546230.md?page=3)