# Scylla is subhuman, or, worse, conservative **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 27, 2007, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842 "2007-04-27T06:51:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842/21 "2007-04-27T14:14:40Z")
Are you sure you’ve got that quote right, **Adam**? Usually, when **Scylla** plays “Totally, totally piss off the liberal weenies”, he sidles right up to something but leaves himself a semantic trapdoor. That quote is too bald. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842/22 "2007-04-27T14:17:39Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Its an old song, to explain why the biggest, baddest, John Wayneist country in the world loses a war. First verse is about how we would have won, but the liberal pansies tied our hands. Second verse: we are too nice. Everybody else is cruel and ruthless in war, but not us. Too nice, that’s us. Only possible explanation. It is entirely possible to change sensible and humane American kids into killbots. But how do you change them back? [/QUOTE] Oh, get off of it. We didn’t encounter much resistance in occupied Germany after the war, and indeed refugees were desperately trying to get to our lines rather than land behind those of the Red Army. They knew, somehow, that even though we fought pretty tough on the battlefield, British and American troops could be counted on to be fair in occupation. They were correct in this view. Likewise, Japan was subdued quickly and the occupation there was fair as well. And this after the capital was firebombed and two principal cities atomic bombed. I am not suggesting that such tactics would be appropriate now, but history shows that your viewpoint has some holes in it. It also shows some justification for **Scylla’s** view, like it or not. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842/23 "2007-04-27T14:29:19Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Are you sure you’ve got that quote right, **Adam**? Usually, when **Scylla** plays “Totally, totally piss off the liberal weenies”, he sidles right up to something but leaves himself a semantic trapdoor. That quote is too bald. [/QUOTE] Hogwash. He is calmly and soberly discussing his views. He is not baiting you. He really isn’t … or have you simply reached the point at which you regard any disagreement with your views as baiting and deliberate provocation? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842/24 "2007-04-27T14:44:18Z")
FWIW, I’m not terribly upset with **Scylla** ’s having hijacked my thread. Seems to me like if there was going to be a debate over screwing with the metrics that would give one a clue whether the ‘surge’ was working, it would have happened before **Scylla** came striding in to share his wisdom with us. It didn’t. I have posted a request in the thread that the mods change the thread title to something less specific to the issue of my OP, since the thread no longer has more than an incidental connection to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842/25 "2007-04-27T14:51:45Z")
Hijack, hell, he _murdered_ that thread, clubbed it to death like a baby seal. And you? You didn’t even thank him! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842/26 "2007-04-27T14:56:09Z")
By the by, that’s “politically regressive” and “evolutionarily challenged”. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842/27 "2007-04-27T14:56:37Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Oh, get off of it. We didn’t encounter much resistance in occupied Germany after the war, and indeed refugees were desperately trying to get to our lines rather than land behind those of the Red Army. They knew, somehow, that even though we fought pretty tough on the battlefield, British and American troops could be counted on to be fair in occupation. They were correct in this view. Likewise, Japan was subdued quickly and the occupation there was fair as well. And this after the capital was firebombed and two principal cities atomic bombed. [/QUOTE] Um… Germany was subdued after six years of total war that ravaged Europe. Japan took nine years, the destruction of its infrastructure, and the use of nuclear weapons. Not quickly at all. The people had suffered unbelievable privations during that time, and were simply sick of resisting. I think **Scylla** is just expressing a perfectly natural rage at the incompetent prosecution of this war. Conservatives thought the US would come in, kick a little ass, and then let democracy flourish. Liberals thought the US would come in, kick some ass, and install some petty martinet who got the trains to run on time, and talked about rights but was really interested in selling oil for $35 a barrel. Anyway, this is how conservatives express their anger, when they can’t direct it at the man responsible. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842/28 "2007-04-27T14:59:03Z")
That would be Clinton. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842/29 "2007-04-27T15:14:27Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] I did. There is nothing about genocide anywhere in Scylla’s post, nor anything that could legitimately be inferred as advocacy of genocide. Again, somebody please quote the exact words where Scylla clearly advocates genocide. [/QUOTE] Nothing inescapably unambiguous, of course, or this would have been brought up by the Mods, not me. What disturbs me is that he seems to think genocide, while not necessarily required at this point, is a morally acceptable end-goal in some circumstances: > [@](#): > > Seeing as we have the ability to kill every man woman and child in the entire Middle East, the only way we lose is if we give up and decide to lose. . . . If we are unwilling to openly advocate and commit moral atrocities than winning or losing depends on how many lives and how much money we are willing to lose fighting the war without crossing whatever moral line we don’t wish to cross. > [@](#): > > remember reading a biography of Sherman. At the outset of the Civil War he claimed how it would be the most horrible and costly and brutal conflict imaginable and said theat it could only be won by a concept he called “total war.” Total war is basically war without limits. If you decide you are going to fight you do everything you can to take away the enemy’s power to resist. You burn cities, cripple your enemies and set them loose so that the opposition has to care for them, destroy the hospitals, destroy everything until the enemy gives up. He argued that this would ultimately be more merciful and kinder and civilized than the limited engagements and wars with ethics that we fought before. If you are fighting a war without limits, once you think you are going to lose, you sue for peace to avoid the continuing horror. > > This he argued was merciful and kind. Because, it is quick, and, ultimately less damage is done than in a protracted limited conflict. Besides, it usually comes down to total war anyway. (The point being that here, and throughout the thread, he is citing Sherman’s worst behavior as examples to be **followed,** not avoided.) > [@](#): > > I think we have to do that now. I think Sherman was right. I look at the limited conflict of the Palestinians versus the Israelis and the generational suffering and I think it would have been much better if one side had simply won long ago. Israel “simply won” in 1967. The kind of total victory **Scylla** seems to longing for would require nothing less than total ethnic cleansing of either the Palestinians or the Jews from all land west of the Jordan. > [@](#): > > I beleive we are in such a conflict with militant fundamentalist Islam. I don’t think we are going to a lasting peace. One side will have to win. If we don’t do it now, I think they will get stronger. We may have peace for a short time, but it will be bigger and uglier next time. Maybe we won’t win. This bit is a symptom of insanity: > [@](#): > > I read that Sherman biography a long time ago, but I remember deciding something from it. It was something that I had been told by my Father and my Grandfather both (one of the few things they agreed upon.) I didn’t really understand when they told me, and truthfully they weren’t very clear. Anyway, what I decided was this: Now that I was more a less of an adult, if I ever got into a physical fight with somebody I was going to my level best to kill them. Posted by **Chronos:** > [@](#): > > No, we could also lose by, for instance, killing every man woman and child in the entire Middle East. In fact, that seems pretty much like a worst-case scenario, to me. But oddly, it sounds like you’re trying to say that would somehow be a victory condition? **Scylla’s** response: > [@](#): > > Yes. > > It’s only slightly less desirable than losing by having all of them kill or conquer all of us. That’s my worst-case scenario. It is not a **possible** scenario for any time within the next century, but never mind that; what’s important here is the moral attitude. > [@](#): > > If we are going to fight a war we should be fighting until our enemy either gives up, is destroyed, or we are destroyed. It is not a matter of “acceptable.” There’s nothing about this conflict that is acceptable. It’s a matter of necessity. I don’t think that it is a necessity to annihiliate the Iraqi people now. If we keep screwing around though, it may be in the future. And so on. We have many intelligent, thoughtful, conservative Dopers who often bring something of value to the table. **Scylla** has never been one of them. In the past he’s contributed many posts that were stupid, blinkered, ignorant, but not particularly Pitworthy. But **these** contributions are the work of a subhuman. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842/30 "2007-04-27T15:27:16Z")
[QUOTE=saoirse] Um… Germany was subdued after six years of total war that ravaged Europe. Japan took nine years, the destruction of its infrastructure, and the use of nuclear weapons. Not quickly at all. The people had suffered unbelievable privations during that time, and were simply sick of resisting. I think **Scylla** is just expressing a perfectly natural rage at the incompetent prosecution of this war. Conservatives thought the US would come in, kick a little ass, and then let democracy flourish. Liberals thought the US would come in, kick some ass, and install some petty martinet who got the trains to run on time, and talked about rights but was really interested in selling oil for $35 a barrel. Anyway, this is how conservatives express their anger, when they can’t direct it at the man responsible. [/QUOTE] By “quickly” I meant after the occupations began. But you knew that. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842/31 "2007-04-27T15:30:48Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] But, Dopers, even shitstain-conservative Dopers, are supposed to be several cuts above the everyday people, are we not? But **Scylla** meets not even that barely acceptable standard. [/QUOTE] In my experience dopers are on average only slightly above average. It seems like there are a lot of converts to the ‘life of the mind’ here on the dope, and by definition anyone who really starts to have an active life of the mind is beyond the average person. I don’t know if I’d put this board at several cuts above, though there are a number of posters who are several cuts above. But, I’m going to take **Scylla’s** side on this, having gotten a pile-on for making a thread about killing all the Muslims in the middle-east on another board. It’s of course the only possible winning course. We should either start warming up the trains and clearing out the shower heads, or we should look toward an alternative to warfare. I sort of see it as one or the other. I started a thread about the future of war and how it will be prosecuted and got only one response. If people are stuck in the state vs state paradigm where success is measured in body counts, I hardly see where suggesting genocide is really all that gauche. **Scylla** My hat goes off to you for keeping the faith on this politically correct liberal haven. I have respect for anyone who chooses to interact with so many politically opposed people. You could be on Little Green Footballs only hearing from the choir. So Kudos to you! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842/32 "2007-04-27T15:32:38Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] By “quickly” I meant after the occupations began. But you knew that. [/QUOTE] I didn’t read it that way, FWIW. Thanks for clarifying. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842/33 "2007-04-27T15:42:13Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] I’m going to take **Scylla’s** side on this, having gotten a pile-on for making a thread about killing all the Muslims in the middle-east on another board. It’s of course the only possible winning course. We should either start warming up the trains and clearing out the shower heads, or we should look toward an alternative to warfare. I sort of see it as one or the other. [/quote] You’re kidding, right? Because if you’re serious, there aren’t words that suffice. > [@](#): > > If people are stuck in the state vs state paradigm where success is measured in body counts, I hardly see where suggesting genocide is really all that gauche. ‘Gauche’?? Genocide isn’t some fucking _faux pas_. It’s _murder on a massive scale_. FWIW, the ‘total war’ that **Scylla** thinks appropriate is the fruit of the state-v.-state paradigm. If anyone on the left side of this debate wants to win that way, or through piling up bodies in some other fashion, I’ve missed it. Even by your own standards, it’s only in the context of **Scylla** that your claim is meaningful. So you are applauding him for _bringing the paradigm to this discussion_ which you say is the precursor that makes talk of genocide okay. So, are you whooshing us, or are you a monster? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842/34 "2007-04-27T15:49:48Z")
Iraq offers no threat to the USA. Many of the people resisting the occupation in Iraq are part of civilian communities, as opposed to regular and distinct military units, and as such can not be easily identified and singled out. Scylla advocates total war: [Bush fudging Iraq numbers, Iraq government hiding them - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=418361) Does that equate to advocating genocide? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842/35 "2007-04-27T15:53:03Z")
I have a feeling some people are just reading bits of what **Scylla** is trying to say and not his whole message. From his POV, it may come down to “them” or “us”, i.e. his worst case scenario. He’s advocating us to be far more destructive than were are in order to avoid such a situation, to decrease the chances of being forced into an us or them situation. While it was noted that he considered wiping them out would be a victory, it was only slightly less desirable than having us all killed. I, for one, would rather kill my enemy rather than be killed. Other than a few devout non-violence advocates, I can’t think of anyone who would disagree. While I think his conclusions are flawed and his reasoning incomplete regarding the outcome of our current conflicts, I think that he is no way advocating genocide as anything other than result of what we could be forced into if Iraq doesn’t turn around. That he is some how wishing for or advocating genocide is a poor interpretation of his writing. In fact he seems to be trying to avoid such a situation. ---
**Author:** ![Grossbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba8739/32.png) [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842/36 "2007-04-27T16:01:41Z")
Main Entry: geno•cide Pronunciation: 'je-n&-"sId Function: noun : the most abused term on the internet, the intellectual devaluation of which has been exceeded only by the absolute moral bankruptcy displayed in those willing to piss on actual victims of ethnic cleansing in order to gain a little righteous thunder for their current debate stance. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842/37 "2007-04-27T16:19:29Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] You’re kidding, right? Because if you’re serious, there aren’t words that suffice. ‘Gauche’?? Genocide isn’t some fucking _faux pas_. It’s _murder on a massive scale_. FWIW, the ‘total war’ that **Scylla** thinks appropriate is the fruit of the state-v.-state paradigm. If anyone on the left side of this debate wants to win that way, or through piling up bodies in some other fashion, I’ve missed it. Even by your own standards, it’s only in the context of **Scylla** that your claim is meaningful. So you are applauding him for _bringing the paradigm to this discussion_ which you say is the precursor that makes talk of genocide okay. So, are you whooshing us, or are you a monster? [/QUOTE] Are you suggesting that I break attorney client privilege? What I will say is that, the only way to win is to commit genocide. So, if you support the war AT ALL, then you are either an idiot who wants to throw money into a never-ending pit without a net positive result for your side, or you will accept what needs to be done and work to delete the opposition. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842/38 "2007-04-27T16:38:03Z")
I suppose it does more or less follow from GeeDubya’s Doctrine of Compulsory Alignment, the “you’re with us or agin us” notion. We demand that Muslim nations, or the Muslim population of other nations, declare thier allegiance, immediately and permanently, and if they refuse to declare themselves for us, they are subject to “preemptive neutralization”. We should tatto some sort of symbol of allegiance, or a mark. Perhaps on the forehead, where it would be readily visible… ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842/39 "2007-04-27T16:40:15Z")
[QUOTE=Sevastopol] The plain truth of this board’s double standard is unarguable. My humble contribution bears only a mild revisit: Perhaps they should codify such rules. I myself have been lately harassed throughout Great Debates by moderators for after comments entirely innocent of **Scylla’s** bile. [/QUOTE] You’ve been “harassed” by moderators because you’re an ignorant, evasive, bigoted asshole. Glad I could clear that up for you. Please get down off your cross now, as the space has been reserved for **Scylla**. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2007, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842/40 "2007-04-27T16:40:17Z")
I think what is bothering me the most is the casual discussions of extreme measures to be taken IN SOMEONE ELSE’S COUNTRY. Just the sheer, unmitigated arrogance of thinking what other people do in their country is and ever has been any of your damned business at all. It’s no wonder that Middle Eastern people hate the U.S. like they do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scylla-is-subhuman-or-worse-conservative/401842.md?page=3)