# SDMB Baseball Hall of Fame, Round 8: Left Fielders **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [September 5, 2008, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237 "2008-09-05T20:48:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237/21 "2008-09-06T16:50:35Z")
The three Polish princes: Stan Musial Carl Yastrzemski Al Simmons The two best leadoff men of all time: Tim Raines Rickey Henderson Two Pirates: Willie Stargell Ralph Kiner And the greatest pure hitters of the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries: Ed Delahanty Ted Williams Manny Ramirez i ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237/22 "2008-09-06T17:23:12Z")
The one I had the most troublw with was Ramirez, actually, in part because I don’t know how bad his defense is really. Ramirez is rated by BP’s WARP as a genuinely terrible defensive outfielder, so bad that it significantly changes his career value, by their measure. I once went to a Red Sox - Blue Jays game the Jays won by some weird score like 13-9, coming back from 6-1, and Ramirez played the outfield about as badly as it can possibly be played. I’ve played co ed softball with better defensive outfielders. There wasn’t a doubt in my mind a competent left fielder would have resulted in the Red Sox winning that game; he was just dreadful, misplaying three balls into extra base hits and not getting to a few just because of his lack of range. Every other chance I got to see him live he was bad, though never as bad as on that day. On the other hand, 1. I don’t entirely trust BP’s defensive judgments, 2. The fact is that he is a fricking awesome hitter, and 3. I’ve never put any stock into the allegation that he’s a bum or a disruptive influence. His teams win. Since joining the Dodgers, Manny is batting .400 with 10 homers in 33 games. He’s the main reason they haven’t been totally buried by Arizona in the last month. The man puts runs on the board. ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237/23 "2008-09-06T17:48:50Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Raines has a huge 42 point lead in OBP, which pretty much renders all other statistical comparisons as unimportant. The era difference isn’t all that significant; while Brock did play a goodly chunk of his career in the 60’s, it was in good hitting parks, while Raines’ peak years were in Montreal’s Mausoleum. BBRef’s “[Air](http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/bat_glossary.shtml#AIR)” rating attempts to peg the overall run context of a player’s career, and there Brock only has a minor advantage (2 points). Yes he has the 3,000 hits and more SBs, but Raines has a much better SB% and was on base more overall. Now there’s an interesting research project for someone willing to find out why Brock scored more runs while being on base ~400 fewer times, but Raines doesn’t need to equalize that to be more valuable. Ok, your argument made me look deeper. Brock played 18 season of 100 games or more, Raines played 15. That will probably account for the difference in runs and hits. Brock struck out almost\* twice \*as many times as Raines (1730 - 966) and walked much less (761 - 1330.) So, I am ready to say my mind has been changed. **RickJay** , could you please change my Brock to a Raines? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237/24 "2008-09-06T18:17:05Z")
I see changes from Brock to Raines. Now I saw Raines play Left Field later in his career but not as an ancient. He was a terrible fielder for all his incredible speed. I did not see Lou Brock often, but I recall him be a very good fielder. Can anyone throw some analysis on that. I am tempted to switch my vote also, but Raines was a far worse left fielder than even Manny. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237/25 "2008-09-06T18:37:54Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I see changes from Brock to Raines. Now I saw Raines play Left Field later in his career but not as an ancient. He was a terrible fielder for all his incredible speed. I did not see Lou Brock often, but I recall him be a very good fielder. Can anyone throw some analysis on that. I am tempted to switch my vote also, but Raines was a far worse left fielder than even Manny. Are you sure you aren’t mixing Raines up with Lonnie Smith? He wasn’t great, but that’s why they’re left fielders. With the rare exception–Yaz, Joe Jackson–they’re left fielders because they’ve got the worst arm and the least range of a club’s three outfielders. Raines was decent, as I recall. Brock was a butcher, though. The Cubs played him in center some when he came up (Williams was in left) and the Cards shifted him to LF where the damage could be contained. (Plus they had Flood in CF, and no one ever suggested playing Brock in CF when Flood was there.) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237/26 "2008-09-06T18:50:34Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Are you sure you aren’t mixing Raines up with Lonnie Smith? > > He wasn’t great, but that’s why they’re left fielders. With the rare exception–Yaz, Joe Jackson–they’re left fielders because they’ve got the worst arm and the least range of a club’s three outfielders. Raines was decent, as I recall. Brock was a butcher, though. The Cubs played him in center some when he came up (Williams was in left) and the Cards shifted him to LF where the damage could be contained. (Plus they had Flood in CF, and no one ever suggested playing Brock in CF when Flood was there.) As I said, I saw him later, Tim Raines was 31 when he got to the White Sox and 36 when he went to the Yanks. He looked bad in Chicago and terrible in NYC. I also honestly don’t remember Brock all that well, but when he chewed up the field, he caught the ball and Raines very often did not. I don’t think that issue was age related but just that he was a very bad fielder that use to be so quick he could better correct for his awful jumps. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237/27 "2008-09-06T20:43:55Z")
My picks follow. Names of left fielders I have seen live (on TV and/or in the stadium) are **bolded** , while earlier players were seleced on the basis of reputation. **Barry Bonds** – My heart said “no”, but my head decided that the all-time home run leader deserves a place on the list, even though his fame is synonymous with infamy in many people’s estimation **Lou Brock** – NL’s all-time steals leader trails only Henderson on the overall list, and is also a member of the 3000-hit club Ed Delahanty – His career BA of .346 is fifth-best of all time, and he hit over 100 home runs during the dead-ball era **Rickey Henderson** – All-time stolen base leader for both a single season (130) and career (1406) Shoeless Joe Jackson – His Black Sox membership can’t be denied, but neither can his .356 average (third-best ever) nor the admiring accounts of those who saw him in action Joe Medwick – His Triple Crown in 1937 is still the NL’s most recent, and he hit at least 40 doubles per season from 1933 to '39, an unmatched record of consistent excellence in that department Stan Musial – National League’s all-time hit leader when he retired, with his 3630 safeties divided absolutely equally between St. Louis home games and road contests Lefty O’Doul – His .349 lifetime average is the fourth-best ever, and he also gained fame as a manager in the Pacific Coast League when that circuit was considered the “third major league” in the pre-expansion era Al Simmons – The _right_ fielder on Harry Stein’s All-Time Polish All-Star Team, Aloysius Szymanski hit at least .308 (while also knocking in at least 102 runs) in each of his first eleven big-league campaigns Ted Williams – Last man to hit .400 or better while qualifying for the batting title, he compiled a .344 lifetime average while smacking over 500 home runs and losing playing time while serving in both WWII and the Korean War ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237/28 "2008-09-06T22:38:24Z")
In no particular order: Ted Williams Stan Musial Barry Bonds Billy Williams Rickey Henderson Carl Yastrzemski Goose Goslin Al Simmons Joe Jackson Ed Delahanty ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237/29 "2008-09-06T22:44:20Z")
Manny’s D during his Cleveland years (as a RF) was serviceable, but yes the last few years for the Sox it’s been pretty horrid. I’ve never trusted Fielding Runs (for various reasons) BTW. Raines in his 20’s had a pretty good D rep, and I believe the stats back that up. He would have played CF if not for the arm and Marquis Grissom. Brock had the rep as being pretty indifferent-he could run down his mistakes but often froze on balls hit right at him (or over his head). ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237/30 "2008-09-06T22:51:00Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The one I had the most troublw with was Ramirez, actually, in part because I don’t know how bad his defense is really. > > Ramirez is rated by BP’s WARP as a genuinely terrible defensive outfielder, so bad that it significantly changes his career value, by their measure. > > I once went to a Red Sox - Blue Jays game the Jays won by some weird score like 13-9, coming back from 6-1, and Ramirez played the outfield about as badly as it can possibly be played. I’ve played co ed softball with better defensive outfielders. There wasn’t a doubt in my mind a competent left fielder would have resulted in the Red Sox winning that game; he was just dreadful, misplaying three balls into extra base hits and not getting to a few just because of his lack of range. Every other chance I got to see him live he was bad, though never as bad as on that day. > > On the other hand, > > 1. I don’t entirely trust BP’s defensive judgments, > 2. The fact is that he is a fricking awesome hitter, and > 3. I’ve never put any stock into the allegation that he’s a bum or a disruptive influence. His teams win. > > Since joining the Dodgers, Manny is batting .400 with 10 homers in 33 games. He’s the main reason they haven’t been totally buried by Arizona in the last month. The man puts runs on the board. Could you put Lety O’Doul in fot Monte Irvin. Thanx. ---
**Author:** ![Parthol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@Parthol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parthol)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237/31 "2008-09-07T00:09:03Z")
Like most of these ballots, this one was easy at the top and tough at the bottom. Barry Bonds Ted Williams Ricky Henderson Stan Musial Manny Ramirez Carl Yastrzemski Tim Raines Al Simmons Willie Stargell Ed Delahanty I’m of the opinion that a truckload of steroids isn’t as damaging to the game as a single player’s betting slip. Thus, Joe Jackson, who would have been on the cusp anyway, doesn’t get my vote, but Barry Bonds does. Almost making my ballot were: Minnie Minoso, Jesse Burkett, Ducky Medwick Also, I don’t really get all the love for Lou Brock. His skillion stolen bases at a good-but-not-great 75% success rate don’t come close to making up for his merely-decent hitting, when comparing him to the career titans at LF. I especially don’t get how he’s better than Raines, whose 100 fewer steals at a 10% higher success rate were at least as valuable as Brocks, whose hitting stats are far and away better, and whose fielding, by what measures there are, was just about the same as Brock’s. (Check out their RF9 compared to their contemporaries at [baseball-reference.com](http://baseball-reference.com).) To me, it’s not even a close comparison. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237/32 "2008-09-07T12:12:36Z")
> [@Parthol](#): > > Also, I don’t really get all the love for Lou Brock. His skillion stolen bases at a good-but-not-great 75% success rate don’t come close to making up for his merely-decent hitting, when comparing him to the career titans at LF. > > I especially don’t get how he’s better than Raines, whose 100 fewer steals at a 10% higher success rate were at least as valuable as Brocks, whose hitting stats are far and away better, and whose fielding, by what measures there are, was just about the same as Brock’s. (Check out their RF9 compared to their contemporaries at [baseball-reference.com](http://baseball-reference.com).) To me, it’s not even a close comparison. A good rule of thumb is to subtract the CS from the SB, twice. Since you need roughly 2 successful steals to compensate for the value of a baserunner lost , the breakeven point is roughly 67%. So Brock’s actual net steals in a year where he tried stealing 80 bases, and was successful 60 times (75%), is actually only 20 bases (60-(2 x (20).) Raines, who might have stolen 35 bases in 40 tries (87.5%), winds up with 25 net bases. IOW, this is one area where the gross total is misleading, and a quick analysis of the numbers yields more accurate results. ---
**Author:** ![Parthol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@Parthol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parthol)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237/33 "2008-09-07T13:41:48Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > A good rule of thumb is to subtract the CS from the SB, twice. Since you need roughly 2 successful steals to compensate for the value of a baserunner lost , the breakeven point is roughly 67%. So Brock’s actual net steals in a year where he tried stealing 80 bases, and was successful 60 times (75%), is actually only 20 bases (60-(2 x (20).) Raines, who might have stolen 35 bases in 40 tries (87.5%), winds up with 25 net bases. IOW, this is one area where the gross total is misleading, and a quick analysis of the numbers yields more accurate results. Exactly: Lou Brock: 938 steals, 307 caught stealing. SB - (2 \* CS) = 324 Tim Raines: 808 steals, 146 caught stealing. SB - (2 \* CS) = 516 All the extra times Brock was gunned down more than erase the difference in the number of times they successfully swiped a base. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2008, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237/34 "2008-09-07T13:49:51Z")
> [@Parthol](#): > > Exactly: > > Lou Brock: 938 steals, 307 caught stealing. SB - (2 \* CS) = 324 > Tim Raines: 808 steals, 146 caught stealing. SB - (2 \* CS) = 516 > > All the extra times Brock was gunned down more than erase the difference in the number of times they successfully swiped a base. Actually those career numbers make the point even more forcefully: if Brock and Raines each stole 808 base in their first 954 attempts (as Raines did), then Brock’s “advantage” would be that he tried an additional 291 times and made it only 130 of those. Needless to say, a baserunner who was that unsuccessful would be red-lighted: “Don’t you dare go–you’re hurting the team.” So it’s hard to give Brock any kind of edge here over Raines. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237/35 "2008-09-09T16:57:52Z")
I am thinking of dumping Stargell. Convince me not to. ---
**Author:** ![Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f0a364/32.png) [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237/36 "2008-09-09T17:23:26Z")
Moises Alou Kirk Gibson Goose Goslin Joe Jackson Ralph Kiner Dave Kingman Stan Musial Willie Stargell Ted Williams Carl Yastrzemski ---
**Author:** ![Jello](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@Jello](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jello)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237/37 "2008-09-09T20:22:55Z")
Dave Kingman? Seriously? Why? I assume you’re leaving Bonds off the list because of steroids, but what about Rickey Henderson and Manny Ramirez? Rickey scored more runs than anyone in history and his only fault is that he refers to himself in the third person. Meanwhile…Dave Kingman? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237/38 "2008-09-09T20:44:57Z")
> [@Jello](#): > > Dave Kingman? Seriously? Why? I assume you’re leaving Bonds off the list because of steroids, but what about Rickey Henderson and Manny Ramirez? Rickey scored more runs than anyone in history and his only fault is that he refers to himself in the third person. Meanwhile…Dave Kingman? I had the same thought but about Moises Alou. So, **Rube** , please explain why Moises F. Alou and David Arthur Kingman are better ballplayers than Rickey Henderson and Manny Ramirez. And, pray, make it improbable. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2008, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237/39 "2008-09-10T03:26:15Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > I had the same thought but about Moises Alou. > > So, **Rube** , please explain why Moises F. Alou and David Arthur Kingman are better ballplayers than Rickey Henderson and Manny Ramirez. > > And, pray, make it improbable. He is tweeking to get a rise. he can not have Gibby there too and Alou and Kingman. Must be playing around. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2008, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237/40 "2008-09-14T02:50:11Z")
bump **RickJay** , take a break from ripping the walls out of your new house. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-round-8-left-fielders/462237.md?page=3)