# SDMB Baseball Hall of Fame vote #2: First Basemen **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [July 29, 2008, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034 "2008-07-29T02:16:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pricciar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@pricciar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pricciar)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/21 "2008-07-29T14:36:52Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] So little love for Frank Thomas… ☹ [/QUOTE] He’s been on 5 ballots out of 9. That’s more than a little! [QUOTE=Mr Moto] Most lists have him as a top ten left fielder, but he doesn’t register as a first baseman - even though he was working first when he had his amazing Series in '79. [/QUOTE] Ahhh. You’re right! I shouldn’t have assumed RickJay, with his voluminous baseball knowledge, would overlook such a great one. He played a good 400 more games in the outfield. Seeing that I will replace Willie Stargell with Willie McCovey. One willie for another seems fair. pat ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/22 "2008-07-29T14:43:21Z")
> [@](#): > > But it is an all time list and he just isn’t an all timer. It’s definitely tough to pick only ten, and based on your list you seem (reasonably enough) to hold defense in pretty high regard, so I can understand your position. Still, offensively, I think that Thomas is one of the top three or four first-basemen ever, particularly as a matter of peak. His stretch from 1991 through 1997 is simply stunning…especially considering the low league-wide offense those first few years. He definitely aged since then, and his performance has had a number of bumpy spots along the way, but over a 19-year career he’s still got an OPS+ of 157, which puts him in the highest echelon of first-base sluggers with Foxx, Mize, the shortened career of Greenberg, and _ugh_ McGwire. (Gehrig and Pujols are on a different plane, but Pujols hasn’t played long enough for his decline period to kick in, and Gehrig is Gehrig.) Definitely defensible to leave him out of your top ten, depending on your criteria for all-time greatness, but I’m surprised at how few people are including him. (Although now I see that he’s named on over half the ballots so far, so never mind. 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Hugh\_Jass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4da419/32.png) [@Hugh\_Jass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hugh_Jass)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/23 "2008-07-29T14:47:35Z")
Multi-position players: I was wondering how you would handle Molitor and Rose (I’d put Carew there as well. And Ernie Banks)… What about a multi-position round? Had to leave off a lot of qualified players. Lou Gehrig Jimmie Foxx Willie McCovey Hank Greenberg Harmon Killebrew Eddie Murray George Sisler Johnny Mize Orlando Cepeda Mickey Vernon ---
**Author:** ![Parthol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@Parthol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parthol)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/24 "2008-07-29T15:11:18Z")
Lou Gehrig Dan Brouthers Jimmie Foxx Hank Greenberg Johnny Mize Frank Thomas Jeff Bagwell Willie McCovey Cap Anson Roger Connor Regarding Frank Thomas: he’s amassed almost 10,000 career plate appearances, which is more than most “old-time” players being considered. And his career OPS+ is in the top 20 ALL TIME. **RickJay** – how much commentary, particularly when it crosses over into advocacy, do you feel comfortable with in these threads? ---
**Author:** ![pricciar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@pricciar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pricciar)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/25 "2008-07-29T15:30:11Z")
Well. That’s sort of dumb. I left off Lou Gehrig? That was a definite error. I am going to have to remove Jim Thome (Who I only added because I had 9) and add Lou. Sorry about all my changes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/26 "2008-07-29T15:33:59Z")
Pujols shouldn’t be on the ballot, as he doesn’t have the ten seasons required, to name just one reason (he’s not even 30 yet). Thus while he has a wonderful peak, we don’t know if he will suffer a catastrophic injury or severe decline sometime in the next year or three, drastically affecting how we perceive his peak (a la Dale Murphy). Gehrig Foxx McGwire Bagwell Eddie Murray Mize Killebrew McCovey Frank Thomas (not the one from the 60’s) Will Clark (another guy ignored by the BBWAA-my ballots will likely have at least one such underrated player) ---
**Author:** ![Mullinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@Mullinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mullinator)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/27 "2008-07-29T15:56:28Z")
Lou Gehrig Jimmie Foxx Willie McCovey Hank Greenberg Harmon Killebrew Jeff Bagwell Cap Anson Dan Brouthers Johnny Mize Frank Thomas (The Big Hurt) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/28 "2008-07-29T16:10:31Z")
Gehrig Foxx Pujoles Greenberg McGwire Sisler Anson Killebrew Murray Olerud After the first 5 or so ,they blur into small differences. Could argue back and forth forever. ---
**Author:** ![Wargamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Wargamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wargamer)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/29 "2008-07-29T16:23:42Z")
Lou Gehrig Jimmy Foxx Hank Greenburg Eddie Murray Bill Terry George Sisler Harmon Killebrew Frank Thomas Willie McCovey Willie Stargell ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/30 "2008-07-29T16:25:16Z")
> [@](#): > > RickJay – how much commentary, particularly when it crosses over into advocacy, do you feel comfortable with in these threads? Man, I’d love to have a light-hearted discussion about some of the reasons for people’s choices (mine and others). ---
**Author:** ![drm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@drm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drm)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/31 "2008-07-29T16:31:42Z")
Lou Gehrig Frank Thomas (The Big Hurt) Albert Pujols Jimmie Foxx Harmon Killebrew George Sisler Hank Greenberg Rod Carew Don Mattingly Jeff Bagwell ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/32 "2008-07-29T16:48:46Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] Man, I’d love to have a light-hearted discussion about some of the reasons for people’s choices (mine and others). [/QUOTE] So go ahead. What’s \*\*RickJay \*\* going to do, ban you? Lists are boring and fascist–let’s chat up a storm. I’m curious what **Hugh Jass** would say that Mickey Vernon accomplished that Gil Hodges didn’t. Hit for a high average a few seasons, maybe? ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/33 "2008-07-29T16:52:09Z")
Lou Gehrig Jimmie Foxx Dan Brouthers Frank Thomas Mark McGwire Johnny Mize Hank Greenberg Jeff Bagwell Willie McCovey Keith Hernandez Hernandez is obviously a sentimental choice on my part. The only other two serious candidates for the spot in my head were Todd Helton, who I think has an insufficient body of work to be considered and might not be much longer for the league, and Dick Allen. The other nine, though, I feel pretty strongly about. I genuinely think those are the nine best first basemen who ever played. This is a cool game. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/34 "2008-07-29T18:34:18Z")
> [@](#): > > So go ahead. What’s RickJay going to do, ban you? Lists are boring and fascist–let’s chat up a storm. Fair enough! **storyteller** , no Cap Anson? **gonzomax** , why Olerud over Bagwell, Thomas, Mize, or McCovey? ---
**Author:** ![Hugh\_Jass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4da419/32.png) [@Hugh\_Jass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hugh_Jass)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/35 "2008-07-29T18:44:14Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] I’m curious what **Hugh Jass** would say that Mickey Vernon accomplished that Gil Hodges didn’t. Hit for a high average a few seasons, maybe? [/QUOTE] It was a tough call. Mickey Vernon led in a few more categories. But I have to admit to a bias here. I was born and raised in Washington, so I’m gonna favor a Senator over someone else. In my completely unscientific opinion, what Vernon accomplished for a lousy team is better than what Hodges did with other bats in the line up. I realize and acknowledge that I am on tenuous ground with this selection. There were several players I wanted to include, but in being limited to 10, had to apply some other criteria to whittle the list down. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/36 "2008-07-29T18:47:02Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] Fair enough! **storyteller** , no Cap Anson? **gonzomax** , why Olerud over Bagwell, Thomas, Mize, or McCovey? [/QUOTE] Like I said,throw a blanket over them. the difference is miniscule. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/37 "2008-07-29T18:56:14Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] Fair enough! **storyteller** , no Cap Anson? [/QUOTE] Anson of course has a pretty compelling case. I obviously didn’t see him play 🙂 , so all I can really do is rely on the statistics. Of the 10 guys on my list, Anson would have the second lowest OPS+ (Hernandez’s was lower, but Hernandez was a game-changing defensive player and I’ve already called him a sentimental pick). It’s tough to make an argument _against_ Anson except by comparison to the players on the current list. Gehrig and Foxx were in their own category. Anson’s contemporary Brouthers was not just better than Anson, he was a _lot_ better, near as I can tell. Johnny Mize lost four prime years to the service; include those, and his OPS+ (158), slugging percentage (.562), and OBP (.397), already better than Anson’s, might have been even higher. Thomas has been as good a hitter as Mize, and over a very long period of time, with periods of unbelivable dominance. McGwire was the best hitter in baseball for a few years. Greenberg is right up there with Thomas and Mize. Bagwell and McCovey are both statistically quite close to Anson, I guess, but I give both of them nods. So, given that I’m including Hernandez as my homer pick, who would I boot from my current list to include Cap Anson? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/38 "2008-07-29T19:07:25Z")
[QUOTE=storyteller0910] Anson of course has a pretty compelling case. I obviously didn’t see him play 🙂 , so all I can really do is rely on the statistics. Of the 10 guys on my list, Anson would have the second lowest OPS+ (Hernandez’s was lower, but Hernandez was a game-changing defensive player and I’ve already called him a sentimental pick). It’s tough to make an argument _against_ Anson except by comparison to the players on the current list. Gehrig and Foxx were in their own category. Anson’s contemporary Brouthers was not just better than Anson, he was a _lot_ better, near as I can tell. Johnny Mize lost four prime years to the service; include those, and his OPS+ (158), slugging percentage (.562), and OBP (.397), already better than Anson’s, might have been even higher. Thomas has been as good a hitter as Mize, and over a very long period of time, with periods of unbelivable dominance. McGwire was the best hitter in baseball for a few years. Greenberg is right up there with Thomas and Mize. Bagwell and McCovey are both statistically quite close to Anson, I guess, but I give both of them nods. So, given that I’m including Hernandez as my homer pick, who would I boot from my current list to include Cap Anson? [/QUOTE] That is the problem for Cap Anson & Dan Brouthers. Unless you are one of the few to read accounts of the Old Game, you have no comparison except statistics and they pale compared to modern players and a Demi-God like Gehrig. I thought based on what they meant to the game, especially Cap, they should be included. It would have been easy for me to leave Brouthers off, but nobody was great enough in the cut list except Big Mac and I won’t vote for Big Mac so I decided I would pick the second best from the 1800s. I also chose Hernandez as he and Mattingly were the best defensively and in the long run Hernandez had the better overall career. I do value defense at first as **Gadarene** noted. It is the main reason why I have never warmed up to Giambi, even more than the steroids. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/39 "2008-07-29T19:15:38Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] That is the problem for Cap Anson & Dan Brouthers. Unless you are one of the few to read accounts of the Old Game, you have no comparison except statistics and they pale compared to modern players and a Demi-God like Gehrig. [/quote] Actually, based on statistics alone, Dan Brouthers was by-God _awesome_, even in comparison to modern hitters. The dude hit .342 for his career, with an OBP of .423. He slugged .514 for his career, which took place entirely before the turn of the century. He led the major leagues in slugging percentage for six straight years. His career OPS+ - which is adjusted for league performance, remember - is _170_, tie with Joe Jackson for seventh all time: better than not only Anson, but also Foxx, McGwire, Mize, Greenberg, and the lot of them. He also stole bases. > [@](#): > > I thought based on what they meant to the game, especially Cap, they should be included. Fair enough, and I think a lot of folks will agree with you. > [@](#): > > It would have been easy for me to leave Brouthers off, but nobody was great enough in the cut list except Big Mac and I won’t vote for Big Mac so I decided I would pick the second best from the 1800s. I just can’t justify choosing Anson over Brouthers; the latter was better in literally every facet of the game that I can observe from this temporal vantage point. > [@](#): > > I also chose Hernandez as he and Mattingly were the best defensively and in the long run Hernandez had the better overall career. I do value defense at first as **Gadarene** noted. It is the main reason why I have never warmed up to Giambi, even more than the steroids. I have a particular admiration for Keith Hernandez. His book, _If at First,_ is not only the reason I’m a Mets’ fan, it’s the reason I’m a _baseball_ fan. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/40 "2008-07-29T19:29:34Z")
[QUOTE=storyteller0910] I just can’t justify choosing Anson over Brouthers; the latter was better in literally every facet of the game that I can observe from this temporal vantage point. [/QUOTE] So you know, I pick Brouthers and I am pleasantly surprised by how many others did. I did not pick him purely for his stats. I actually picked him as he was described in several books I have read as the second best first baseman on the 1800s. When I wrote my last post, I did not even notice I was responding to someone that pick Brouthers. I was actually trying to defend my obscure pick. His name rarely comes up in baseball conversations. The voters near the time pick Cap Anson in 1939, same year as Gehrig in fact. Dan Brouthers had to wait until 1945. He was a great player, thus he made my top 10 list. However, the people of Cap’s time called him the game’s first superstar and best player. Jim [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034.md?page=3)