# SDMB Baseball Hall of Fame vote #2: First Basemen **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [July 29, 2008, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034 "2008-07-29T02:16:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Parthol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@Parthol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parthol)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/41 "2008-07-29T19:31:31Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Like I said,throw a blanket over them. the difference is miniscule. [/QUOTE] I don’t see quite how one could say the difference is miniscule: Mize: 158 OPS+ (#16 all time) over 7371 PA Thomas: 157 OPS+ (# 19 all time) over 9965 PA Bagwell: 149 OPS+ (#34 all time) over 9431 PA McCovey 147 OPS+ (#42 all time) over 9686 PA Olerud: 128 OPS+ (#175 all time) over 9063 PA Olerud did play excellent defense, and I have nothing personal against the guy, but no amount of 1B defensive prowess (IMO) could make up for that kind of offensive deficit. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/42 "2008-07-29T19:37:36Z")
Thanks, **storyteller**. **gonzomax:** > [@](#): > > Like I said,throw a blanket over them. the difference is miniscule. Not to poke at this too much, but in what ways is the difference miniscule? To me, Bagwell/Thomas/Mize/McCovey trump Olerud in just about every conceivable way (not that John wasn’t a very good player). Some random but worthwhile categories: **Black Ink (led the league):** Olerud 7 (Thomas 21, Bagwell 24, McCovey 31, Mize 50) – the average HOFer has around 27 **Gray Ink (among league leaders):** Olerud 51 (McCovey 126, Bagwell 157, Thomas 200, Mize 202) – the average HOFer has around 144 **Top Ten Full Seasons, OPS+:** Olerud: 186, 140, 136, 135, 128, 126, 117, 116, 116, 115 Bagwell: 213, 178, 168, 162, 158, 152, 144, 142, 139, 139 McCovey: 209, 181, 174, 164, 164, 161, 161, 159, 153, 149 Thomas: 211, 181, 180, 179, 178, 177, 174, 163, 146, 140 Mize: 185, 178, 176, 175, 172, 161, 161, 160, 156, 156 Olerud’s second-best season in this regard is no better than Thomas’s tenth-best season or Bagwell’s eighth-best season, and wouldn’t crack the top ten of Mize and McCovey. **All-Star Games:** Olerud: 2 Bagwell: 4 Thomas: 5 McCovey: 6 Mize: 10 Olerud does have three gold gloves. Other than that, how does he come close to the other four? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/43 "2008-07-29T19:41:01Z")
[QUOTE=Parthol] I don’t see quite how one could say the difference is miniscule: Mize: 158 OPS+ (#16 all time) over 7371 PA Thomas: 157 OPS+ (# 19 all time) over 9965 PA Bagwell: 149 OPS+ (#34 all time) over 9431 PA McCovey 147 OPS+ (#42 all time) over 9686 PA Olerud: 128 OPS+ (#175 all time) over 9063 PA Olerud did play excellent defense, and I have nothing personal against the guy, but no amount of 1B defensive prowess (IMO) could make up for that kind of offensive deficit. [/QUOTE] I do count defense and running ability. Those guys were big goons. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/44 "2008-07-29T19:46:17Z")
Brouthers is so far back in time, that it was a different game and a different world. I can not get on the bandwagon for pre 1900 players. I becomes mythology and not comparable. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/45 "2008-07-29T19:49:09Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] I do count defense and running ability. Those guys were big goons. [/QUOTE] Wait, my recollections of Olerud was him being rather slow. The man only had 11 stolen bases in 25 attempts and 13 triples. He had no speed. Johnny Mize actually had 28 steals and 83 triples. He was known as a good fielder. I never even considered Olerud a Hall of Famer. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/46 "2008-07-29T19:53:44Z")
Hell, Jeff Bagwell had 202 stolen bases. He was a thirty-thirty man twice. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/47 "2008-07-29T19:54:31Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] rather slow. [/QUOTE] Dead slow. Slowest guy on every team he ever played for. Slow when young. Slow when healthy. The unlikeliest guy to get a cycle (and the only guy I ever saw get a cycle.) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/48 "2008-07-29T20:45:23Z")
Olerud also beat Detroit like a drum. Personal experience comes in. Winfield did the same. So I may have a more positive memory. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/49 "2008-07-29T20:48:34Z")
Dad, you’re a donkey. If you’re plunging a fist into a bucket to pick number 10 for the best first basemen of all time, John Olerud’s name isn’t in that bucket. The man wore a batting helmet when fielding. I think I know why you picked him. Remember that fantasy baseball league we had many moons ago? You had him on our team. If you start arguing for Jimmy Key and Juan Guzman to make the hall, I sware I’ll smother you in your sleep with a pillow. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/50 "2008-07-29T20:49:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Olerud also beat Detroit like a drum. He hit more home runs against the Indians, Rangers, Angels, Orioles, Twins, and A’s than he did against the Tigers, for what it’s worth (not much). 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/51 "2008-07-29T20:54:26Z")
Lou Gehrig Jimmie Foxx Willie McCovey Hank Greenberg Eddie Murray Mark McGwire Jeff Bagwell George Sisler Johnny Mize Frank Thomas (The Big Hurt) I’m reserving my vote for Harmon Killebrew for the third base election. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/52 "2008-07-29T21:02:58Z")
Lou Gehrig Willie McCovey Jimmy Foxx Eddie Murray Rod Carew Johnny Mize Albert Pujols Hank Greenberg Cap Anson Harmon Killebrew ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/53 "2008-07-29T21:38:28Z")
Sorry I missed voting on the catchers (although I can’t find any real fault with the selections). Here are my choices for first base (names of those I saw play are **bolded** , others are by reputation): **Rod Carew** (if he doesn’t make it here, he should be elected in a wild card round) Jimmie Foxx **Andrés Galarraga** Lou Gehrig Hank Greenberg **Willie McCovey** Johnny Mize **Eddie Murray** **Albert Pujols** (perhaps premature, but he’s gaining acclaim for “most home runs by his age” and similar feats) George Sisler Good enough stats, but I couldn’t justify placing them: Cap Anson (his racist attitudes played a significant role in postponing the integration of the game) **Mark McGwire** (steroid cloud hangs over him) ---
**Author:** ![Parthol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@Parthol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parthol)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/54 "2008-07-29T21:48:56Z")
[QUOTE=Sternvogel] … **Andrés Galarraga** [/QUOTE] I’m sure I’m not the only one interested in hearing arguments that Andres Galarraga was better than Frank Thomas and Jeff Bagwell! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kevja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@kevja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevja)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/55 "2008-07-29T21:50:55Z")
Lou Gehrig Jimmie Foxx Willie McCovey Hank Greenberg Harmon Killebrew Johnny Mize Frank Thomas (The Big Hurt) Tony Perez Orlando Cepeda Albert Pujols ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/56 "2008-07-29T23:42:19Z")
Lou Gehrig Jimmie Foxx Willie McCovey Hank Greenberg Harmon Killebrew Rod Carew Frank Thomas (The Big Hurt) George Sisler Bill Terry Johnny Mize From a column by Steve Wulf in Sports Illustrated, September 10, 1990: Wrote Will Wedge of the New York Sun : “The Yankees ’ surprise purchase of Johnny Mize , a big, slow, former slugger, who had seemed approaching the washed-up stage with the Giants , reveals the panicky state of the Yankees ’ front office.” Mize silenced the critics a few days later with a two-run homer off Bob Feller to help beat Cleveland . He paid bigger dividends in the years to come, hitting 25 homers in 1950 and batting .400 with three homers and six RBIs in the '52 Series. All in all, the “washed-up” Mize played in five Series for the Yankees and inspired these immortal lines from sportswriter Dan Parker : “Your arm is gone; your legs likewise,/But not your eyes, Mize , not your eyes!” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/57 "2008-07-29T23:49:07Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Lou Gehrig Jimmie Foxx Willie McCovey Hank Greenberg Eddie Murray Mark McGwire Jeff Bagwell George Sisler Johnny Mize Frank Thomas (The Big Hurt) I’m reserving my vote for Harmon Killebrew for the third base election. [/QUOTE] Killebrew played first 969 appearances 3rd 791 471 Left 11 2nd base 158 DH ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/58 "2008-07-29T23:58:41Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Killebrew played first 969 appearances 3rd 791 471 Left 11 2nd base 158 DH [/QUOTE] Which is why it would be a really good idea to vote by position only for players who actually played that position for some very high percentage of their career games. In fact, we could make this equitable by setting that percentage at about the level it would take to make all the fields–8 position players, and one all-purpose DH/multi-position player–about the same. That is, if setting the percentage of career games at one position as high as 99% would create a pool of DH/MPPs about the same as any one position, then set it there, and if setting it as low as 70% would accomplish that end, then set it there. But I think we’re going to risk skewed results if players like Killebrew get a crack at being nominated at multiple positions, or even just at one position and then again in a grab-bag category. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2008, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/59 "2008-07-30T01:13:28Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] Man, I’d love to have a light-hearted discussion about some of the reasons for people’s choices (mine and others). [/QUOTE] These threads are for baseball fans. Baseball fans LOVE to argue about this stuff. Please, fire away, but respect other people’s voting choices. Let’s not crowd the votes out. My choices: Lou Gehrig (duh) Willie McCovey Hank Greenberg Cap Anson Jimmie Foxx Rod Carew Eddie Murray Frank Thomas Jeff Bagwell Johnny Mize I think we’ll have to have a “Multi Position Star” vote for sure. We will be having special Wild Card rounds, so don’t panic if Killer doesn’t make it here. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2008, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034/60 "2008-07-30T01:17:57Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Lou Gehrig (duh) Willie McCovey Hank Greenberg Cap Anson Jimmie Foxx Rod Carew Eddie Murray Frank Thomas Jeff Bagwell Johnny Mize [/QUOTE] So what was your major criteria for First Base? Some of the younger guys you picked surprise me. Mine is a mix of stats, reputation and what the people of their time appeared to think of them. Some of the younger guys you picked surprise me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-2-first-basemen/458034.md?page=4)