# SDMB Baseball Hall of Fame Vote #3: Second Basemen **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [August 2, 2008, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569 "2008-08-02T03:21:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hugh\_Jass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4da419/32.png) [@Hugh\_Jass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hugh_Jass)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569/21 "2008-08-02T17:06:37Z")
Eddie Collins Frankie Frisch Charlie Gehringer Rogers Hornsby Nap Lajoie Joe Morgan Jackie Robinson Ryne Sandberg Red Schoendienst Rod Carew This was much easier than the 1Bs in my book. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569/22 "2008-08-02T17:13:11Z")
Frankie Frisch Charlie Gehringer Billy Herman Rogers Hornsby Nap Lajoie Tony Lazzeri Joe Morgan Jackie Robinson Ryne Sandberg Rod Carew ---
**Author:** ![kevja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@kevja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevja)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569/23 "2008-08-02T17:14:46Z")
Rogers Hornsby Joe Morgan Jackie Robinson Ryne Sandberg Rod Carew (recieved 10 votes in 1st basemen ballot; not elected there) Roberto Alomar Craig Biggio Jeff Kent Lou Whitaker Bobby Grich ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569/24 "2008-08-02T18:35:54Z")
My own ballot: Eddie Collins Joe Morgan Roberto Alomar Craig Biggio Jackie Robinson Charlie Gehringer Rogers Hornsby Napoleon Lajoie Frankie Frisch Ryne Sandberg This was a very, very tough ballot to make out. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569/25 "2008-08-02T18:37:01Z")
[QUOTE=Windwalker] I think it may have been interesting to allow people to vote X instead of a full ten players, allowing them in effect to cast a ballot for a Small Hall (if X ranks in the top 10, then only the top 9 are entered; if there are enough X’s to rank in the top 10 twice, then only the top 8 are entered, etc.) That said, here’s my vote: Robert Alomar Craig Biggio Rod Carew Eddie Collins Charlie Gehringer Roger Hornsby Nap Lajoie Joe Morgan Jackie Robinson Ryne Sandberg I guess I’m an offense whore, since I don’t really know how to evaluate defense very well, especially of players I’ve never seen. I expected Hornsby, Jackie R. and Morgan to be on every ballot, so I’m surprised that you left Jackie out, gonzomax. Was his career too short, or is he not 2B enough? Even without breaking the color barrier, a career .311/.409/.474 is awesome for the era he played in. [/QUOTE] Too short. His accumulated stats fall short. But Carew won the 2nd most batting titles to Cobb. That is domination. Hornsby is above them all. I thought they would be on every ballot. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569/26 "2008-08-02T19:46:43Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] Well that is fair, I remember Alomar from his Toronto, Baltimore and Cleveland days and then his Met misery. [/QUOTE] I doubt most fans outside of New York even remember, without thinking about it, that he was ever a Met. How strange people are judging him based on a year and a half in Queens (and he wasn’t awful.) It’s like judging Hank Aaron based on his performance for the Brewers. I’ll tell you this; Alomar was the best player on a team that won back to back World Series titles and you can’t say that about too many guys. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569/27 "2008-08-02T20:03:46Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] he wasn’t awful [/QUOTE] We could discuss your standards for awfulness. Here’s his stats: [Roberto Alomar Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com](http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/alomaro01.shtml) If you’re defining “awfulness” as not deserving of a major league job with any team, then I’d agree. But I define it as “at or below replacement level,” which I think he was for the final 245 games (in three seasons), especially since he came to Queens off an MVP-level season, and we were expecting someone who could play well, or at least better than average. He couldn’t, and he insisted on the props of someone playing at superstar levels. I know it’s a small, and unrepresentative, slice of his career, but I hate him, I hate what he represents, I hate his surly entitled attitude, and I loved shipping his ass to the poor White Sox. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569/28 "2008-08-02T20:08:10Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] I doubt most fans outside of New York even remember, without thinking about it, that he was ever a Met. How strange people are judging him based on a year and a half in Queens (and he wasn’t awful.) It’s like judging Hank Aaron based on his performance for the Brewers. I’ll tell you this; Alomar was the best player on a team that won back to back World Series titles and you can’t say that about too many guys. [/QUOTE] Agreed, I honestly thought he would end up being the best I ever saw, but he faded fast and I am not so sure now. I might have to give that to Morgan. (No matter how much I hate him as an announcer.) I noticed you passed on Carew, but you voted for him at first I think. Are you being intentionally honest by not voting for him in two positions or did you think he just did not make the cut at second? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569/29 "2008-08-02T20:30:18Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] Are you going purely by the numbers? [/quote] Mostly, and length of career. I’ll have to think hard about Koufax too. 😃 Robinsons’s numbers needed to be overwhelming to make up for the shortness of his career, and - while excellent - they’re not overwhelming. I’d possibly vote for him in an at-large round, but it looks like he’ll get in on this one. > [@](#): > > When a player is bigger than the game and changes the game and the country I think he deserves some huge bonus points. For the Congressional Medal of Honor, sure. ---
**Author:** ![want2know](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@want2know](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/want2know)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569/30 "2008-08-02T20:45:53Z")
Eddie Collins Jackie Robinson Rogers Hornsby Nap Lajoie Joe Morgan Frank Frisch Charlie Gehringer Rod Carew Ryne Sandberg Nellie Fox ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2008, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569/31 "2008-08-02T21:20:32Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] I noticed you passed on Carew, but you voted for him at first I think. Are you being intentionally honest by not voting for him in two positions or did you think he just did not make the cut at second? [/QUOTE] Honesty. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569/32 "2008-08-03T00:04:55Z")
Is Larry Doby going to get special consideration for breaking the color barrier in the AL.? ---
**Author:** ![CateAyo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@CateAyo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CateAyo)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569/33 "2008-08-03T00:24:51Z")
Johnny Evers Nellie Fox Rogers Hornsby Nap Lajoie Bill Mazeroski Joe Morgan Jackie Robinson Ryne Sandberg Craig Biggio Lou Whitaker ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569/34 "2008-08-03T00:25:21Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Is Larry Doby going to get special consideration for breaking the color barrier in the AL.? [/QUOTE] That is up to the voters, gonzo. Doby was an outfielder, so it’ll be decided then. There’s another thread for general discussion of the SDMB Hall of Fame series of threads. ---
**Author:** ![Windwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5e9695/32.png) [@Windwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Windwalker)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569/35 "2008-08-03T00:36:32Z")
What works against Doby is that 2nd Base is usually a weaker offensive position than OF ones, and Robinson’s numbers are pretty comparable (Jackie got on base significantly more than Larry, with less power). Of course, Robinson moved around the field a bit, which complicates matters. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569/36 "2008-08-03T03:20:57Z")
Eddie Collins Charlie Gehringer Rogers Hornsby Nap Lajoie Joe Morgan Jackie Robinson Ryne Sandberg Rod Carew (recieved 10 votes in 1st basemen ballot; not elected there) Roberto Alomar Lou Whitaker ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569/37 "2008-08-03T03:33:05Z")
If loving Ryne Sandberg is wrong I don’t wanna be right, baby. [QUOTE=RickJay] I’ll tell you this; Alomar was the best player on a team that won back to back World Series titles and you can’t say that about too many guys. [/QUOTE] One of the reasons Sandberg is so impressive is not just the stats (though for the 1980s they’re eye-popping for his position) but the fact that he led to fundamentally flawed teams (the '84 and '89 Cubs) to division titles. Alomar, while a damn fine player on those Blue Jay teams, had greatness around him. 92,93 Blue Jays Olerud Carter Winfield Morris Guzman Henke Ward Molitor Hentgen 84, 89 Cubs Cey Matthews 1/2 of Sutcliffe Grace Dawson (.307 OBP that year! Oy!) Maddux Williams Bielecki Sandberg had much weaker teammates with which to play. There’s a deep difference in the quality of talent both had to work with to get to the playoffs. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569/38 "2008-08-03T11:10:41Z")
[QUOTE=Jonathan Chance] Sandberg had much weaker teammates with which to play. There’s a deep difference in the quality of talent both had to work with to get to the playoffs. [/QUOTE] This argument relies on utterly unquantifiable stuff to mean anything at all. It’s the argument that people put forth when they’ve got very little, and I mistrust it deeply. It means that Billy Williams, Ron Santo, Ernie Banks, Fergie Jenkins, Randy Hundley, et al. had horrible (negative, essentially) leadership skills, in that they were unable to lead their teams to any post-season play despite stellar teammates, and I don’t buy it for a second. Players are as good as they are. No one makes anyone better, or worse. You can take any weak playoff team, isolate its best player, and make him into a baseball God by this standard, when every fact you can find tells you that another player on a non-playoff team that season had a superior season to his. ---
**Author:** ![Windwalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/5e9695/32.png) [@Windwalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Windwalker)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2008, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569/39 "2008-08-03T11:28:58Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] This argument relies on utterly unquantifiable stuff to mean anything at all. It’s the argument that people put forth when they’ve got very little, and I mistrust it deeply. It means that Billy Williams, Ron Santo, Ernie Banks, Fergie Jenkins, Randy Hundley, et al. had horrible (negative, essentially) leadership skills, in that they were unable to lead their teams to any post-season play despite stellar teammates, and I don’t buy it for a second. Players are as good as they are. No one makes anyone better, or worse. You can take any weak playoff team, isolate its best player, and make him into a baseball God by this standard, when every fact you can find tells you that another player on a non-playoff team that season had a superior season to his. [/QUOTE] I think the team leading aspect works much better in a game like basketball, where you have so many more interactions per minute with your teammates. There, a case can legitimately made that you’re somewhat of an engineer of your team’s success, whereas it doesn’t make as much sense in baseball (it still does, to some extent, but the effect is clearly lessened). ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2008, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569/40 "2008-08-04T02:17:46Z")
Here’s mine: Eddie Collins Rogers Hornsby Joe Morgan Nap Lajoie Charlie Gehringer Bobby Grich Craig Biggio Ryne Sandberg Jackie Robinson Rod Carew Hate to leave out Alomar, Barnes, and Frisch (although I hold the whole Veteran’s Committee fiasco against ol’ Frankie, so I’m pretty okay with that omission). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-3-second-basemen/458569.md?page=3)