# SDMB Baseball Hall of Fame, Vote #4: Shortstops **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [August 5, 2008, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-4-shortstops/458878 "2008-08-05T03:39:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Parthol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@Parthol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parthol)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-4-shortstops/458878/61 "2008-08-06T18:31:48Z")
I’ve made a post related to this argument over [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10073622#post10073622), out of respect for **RickJay** ’s wishes that we not fill up this thread with tangential arguments. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-4-shortstops/458878/62 "2008-08-06T18:34:52Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] And John Olerud, of course. Easy to recognize his talent, too. **gonzomax:** Where do you draw the line? Bill Terry batted .401/.452/.619 in 1930. Sherry Magee batted .328/.396/.455 in 1907. Dick Allen batted .263/.352/.520 in 1968. And Fred McGriff batted .286/.394/.556 in 1992. Can you tell from looking at that who on that list had the best offensive season and who had the worst? [/QUOTE] I did not say it is easy. I never looked up Arky Vaughn until we did this thread. I just can not relate the dead ball era to today. There were always 400 hitters at the turn of the century. Do they get a free ride? They won home run titles with single digits. Does that relate? I think logic fails when you go too far back. Sorry. I think at some point the difference between eras becomes so wide that it is actually a different game. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-4-shortstops/458878/63 "2008-08-06T18:42:26Z")
That doesn’t actually answer my question. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-4-shortstops/458878/64 "2008-08-06T22:22:36Z")
Lots of time for more votes. Lurkers, get in here and vote! ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-4-shortstops/458878/65 "2008-08-07T02:34:17Z")
Honus Wagner Cal Ripken, Jr. Ernie Banks Lou Boudreau Arky Vaughan Joe Cronin Alex Rodriguez Luke Appling Joe Sewell Herman Long ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-4-shortstops/458878/66 "2008-08-07T20:53:26Z")
Bump. Your chance to vote ends midnight tonight. Vote! ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2008, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-4-shortstops/458878/67 "2008-08-07T23:54:36Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] I did not say it is easy. I never looked up Arky Vaughn until we did this thread. I just can not relate the dead ball era to today. There were always 400 hitters at the turn of the century. Do they get a free ride? They won home run titles with single digits. Does that relate? I think logic fails when you go too far back. Sorry. I think at some point the difference between eras becomes so wide that it is actually a different game. [/QUOTE] I actually agree with this. One of the telltale signs that the game is improving and the players getting better is the tendency to lose the extremes. One of the reasons there AREN’T .400 hitters anymore is that the game as a whole has gotten tighter and meaner. The pitchers are bigger, faster, better trained and better fed. Pitches have improved to the point where it is likely that someone like Cobb or Ruth, while still being a great player, wouldn’t have the numbers they had. In my dream of dreams I’d like to see the famed ‘greatest team of all’, the 1927 Yankees, go up against the 1989 Athletics or the Big Red Machine and so forth. I think the old timers would fine the competition significantly tougher than they were used to facing. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-4-shortstops/458878/68 "2008-08-08T00:11:56Z")
Ozzie Smith Honus Wagner Alex Rodriguez Cal Ripken, Jr. Ernie Banks Derek Jeter Arky Vaughan Pee Wee Reese Joe Cronin Luke Appling ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-4-shortstops/458878/69 "2008-08-08T00:15:53Z")
There’s other signs of course-Bill James did a list of them in one of his books [Rummage] If the competition level goes up, these factors will go down: Hitting by pitchers Standard deviation of the players’ ages from 27 Passed ball rates Error rates (fielding % goes up) % of time pitchers spend at other positions % of fielding plays made by the pitcher % of games which are blowouts Average distance of teams from .500 Standard deviation of offensive effectiveness (as **Jonathan** just outlined) Standard of record-keeping % of player-managers While these will go up: Double play rate (GIDP at least) Average attendance Quality of the playing conditions % of extra inning games Now correlation doesn’t necessarily equal causation 100% in this case, but it would be very hard for some other factor, other than the competition level, to come in and affect most of these factors in these ways. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-4-shortstops/458878/70 "2008-08-08T13:41:52Z")
We have another tie! We are inducting 11 shortstops: Honus Wagner Cal Ripken Jr. Robin Yount Arky Vaughan Alex Rodriguez Luke Appling Ozzie Smith Joe Cronin Ernie Banks Lou Boudreau Derek Jeter Boudreau and Jeter tied for 10th. Just missing was Barry Larkin, followed by Aparicio, Reese, Sewell. A reasonable vote, I think. The third baseman vote is now open! ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-4-shortstops/458878/71 "2008-08-08T13:50:58Z")
Dang, I should’ve voted for Larkin. I think Boudreau should be severely dinged for putting up most of his good numbers during the war years when the MLB talent pool was significantly depleted. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-4-shortstops/458878/72 "2008-08-08T15:18:43Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] Dang, I should’ve voted for Larkin. I think Boudreau should be severely dinged for putting up most of his good numbers during the war years when the MLB talent pool was significantly depleted. [/QUOTE] Switching from Boudreau to Larkin would have simply caused them to be tied for 11th, if it makes you feel any better. Larkin missed by two votes. He’ll be a strong wild card contender in the modern era, I think. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-4-shortstops/458878/73 "2008-08-08T15:31:32Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] Boudreau and Jeter tied for 10th. Just missing was Barry Larkin, followed by Aparicio, Reese, Sewell. A reasonable vote, I think. The third baseman vote is now open! [/QUOTE] I’m glad I switched my vote. I would have felt bad if Jete missed by one vote. I’m glad Banks made it where he belongs. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-4-shortstops/458878/74 "2008-08-08T15:41:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Switching from Boudreau to Larkin would have simply caused them to be tied for 11th, if it makes you feel any better. Larkin missed by two votes. He’ll be a strong wild card contender in the modern era, I think. They wouldn’t even have been tied, since I didn’t vote for Boudreau to begin with. 🙂 (Threw my votes away on Dahlen and Davis.) ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-4-shortstops/458878/75 "2008-08-08T15:43:24Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] I’m glad I switched my vote. I would have felt bad if Jete missed by one vote. I’m glad Banks made it where he belongs. [/QUOTE] Man, I could have kept Jeter out of the hall of fame.. Well, at least for a little bit. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2008, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-4-shortstops/458878/76 "2008-08-08T18:21:08Z")
[QUOTE=Hawkeyeop] Man, I could have kept Jeter out of the hall of fame.. Well, at least for a little bit. [/QUOTE] I didn’t vote for Jeter, but he’s not a _bad_ choice; he really has been a terrific hitter. If he holds on playing reasonable baseball for a few more years he’ll be top ten with ease, and that seems likely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-baseball-hall-of-fame-vote-4-shortstops/458878.md?page=3)