# SDMB Bigoted Asshole Omnibus Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 29, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489 "2012-05-29T22:59:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 115
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2281 "2012-06-21T00:53:52Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > You can conclude that much of the difference is due to genetics, but it wouldn’t be a logical conclusion. Without exception? Oh, and please answer my question from before: Can “ethnic Germans” be “grouped by their genes?” Can “Ashkenazim” be “grouped by their genes?” If so, how? ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2282 "2012-06-21T00:55:03Z")
As predicted, more questions, no answers.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2283 "2012-06-21T00:55:21Z")
And encore **84** as predicted does not respond to questions. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2284 "2012-06-21T00:55:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No. Ok, and do you agree that one can observe average differences between my “Race 1” and the other races which differences are primarily the result of genetics? Also, please answer my question from before: Why is that if you want to claim that groups are genetically less intelligent, then you most certainly need the concept of a “genetic group”? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2285 "2012-06-21T00:57:38Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > It will generate the “questions” he believes are clever but in fact show he does not understand. **[84](http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Francis_Aaron).** That’s pretty rich coming from a guy who I caught blatantly misrepresenting my position. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2286 "2012-06-21T00:59:26Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > **Brazil84** prefers to tear down “pure environmentalist” strawmen So you concede that part of the achievement gap between blacks and whites is due to genetics? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2287 "2012-06-21T01:00:39Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, in that case I’ll just shamelessly steal your post and present it as my own: Sorry, but I’m not going to engage with **cmyk** by proxy. If you want to discuss the issues, fine. But present your own arguments and questions – not those of **cmyk**. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2288 "2012-06-21T01:02:02Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > but felt the need to post kudos to **Heart of Dorkness** for his/her excellent post. I take it you agree with him when he said this? > [@](#): > > Yes. Fine. It does not necessarily follow that the intelligence gap between blacks and whites is not substantially genetic in origin. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2289 "2012-06-21T01:05:29Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > They don’t need to. Burden of proof isn’t on the individual denying the claim, it’s on the individual making it: empirical evidence, theoretical framework. The person who makes a claim has the burden of explaining the basis for the claim and what exactly is being claimed. > [@](#): > > I don’t expect you to buy historical mistreatment of indigenous populations as a dispositional explanation for an achievement gap, No . . . do you? This is a serious question. Do you believe that historical treatment leading up to the present accounts for the achievement gap? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2290 "2012-06-21T01:21:30Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > The person who makes a claim has the burden of explaining the basis for the claim and what exactly is being claimed. So you are _not_ claiming that there are genetically identifiable human races? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2291 "2012-06-21T01:26:21Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Sorry, but I’m not going to engage with **cmyk** by proxy. If you want to discuss the issues, fine. But present your own arguments and questions – not those of **cmyk**. His questions are close variants of what I would have asked, so I continue to ask them. Feel free to pretend cmyk doesn’t exist and the questions are original with me, if you prefer. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2292 "2012-06-21T01:34:48Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > So you are _not_ claiming that there are genetically identifiable human races? It depends what you mean by “genetically identifiable.” I don’t believe that there is a “black gene” which pretty much all blacks have and pretty much nobody else has. I do believe that tests could be done on peoples’ DNA which would do a pretty good (but not perfect) job of sorting people into the traditional categories of Caucasoid; Mongoloid; and Negroid. (And possibly Australoid). ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2293 "2012-06-21T01:39:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Feel free to pretend cmyk doesn’t exist and the questions are original with me, if you prefer. I can’t really pretend that since I know it’s not so. Why don’t you do this: If you don’t understand my position, or a phrase that I used, just quote the language in question and ask me a question about it directly. If my answer doesn’t satisfy, then try a hypothetical question – if you like. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2294 "2012-06-21T01:45:38Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I can’t really pretend that since I know it’s not so. Why don’t you do this: > > If you don’t understand my position, or a phrase that I used, just quote the language in question and ask me a question about it directly. If my answer doesn’t satisfy, then try a hypothetical question – if you like. Ok, let me try. Here’s Bryan’s paraphrase of cmyk’s question. > [@](#): > > Let’s gently take your definitions and repackage them back over to you; keeping it on an honest mark with the assertion of this thread and the OP; no obfuscation: > > Race 1) {Negroes} > > Race 2) {Orientals} > > Race 3) {Caucasians} > > We’ll start with just two simple, and honest questions: > > 1. Genetically, how should we define each of the races you insist exist? That is, by what genetic criteria is each to fall under, at the minimum? > > 2. Failing genetics, how is someone like myself supposed to determine, with accuracy, which race some individual should fall under? This shouldn’t be too difficult. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2295 "2012-06-21T01:46:01Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I do believe that tests could be done on peoples’ DNA which would do a pretty good (but not perfect) job of sorting people into the traditional categories of Caucasoid; Mongoloid; and Negroid. (And possibly Australoid). You believe it based on…? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2296 "2012-06-21T01:49:17Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I can’t really pretend that since I know it’s not so. Why don’t you do this: > > If you don’t understand my position, or a phrase that I used, just quote the language in question and ask me a question about it directly. If my answer doesn’t satisfy, then try a hypothetical question – if you like. I’d rather just get to the basics - identifying (in the general) the racial groups, then getting specific to the genetic markers that distinguish these groups, then discussing how these genetic variations lead to the observed social variations, i.e. one group being on average more intelligent, more prone to crime/violence, more immune to disease, etc. At the very least, it would lay the necessary foundation for later discussion. If you disagree, that’s fine. ---
**Author:** ![Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4bbf92/32.png) [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2297 "2012-06-21T01:52:19Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I’m only reading this thread as an excuse to avoid doing something else that I really need to do, but felt the need to post kudos to **Heart of Dorkness** for his/her excellent post. I came into this thread not sure what the state-of-the-art was on race and intelligence, but then I read your post, and am leaving the wiser for it (unlike some others I could name). Well, thanks. I’m really glad you and others found my post helpful. But as I take pains to mention frequently, I really am a total layman in regard to genetics. I’ve just done a bit of reading. I make a point of saying this often, not only because I think it’s funny that **brazil84** “called me out” on it, when it was literally the first thing I posted, but also so that those who don’t have any more expertise than I do are aware they should take what I say with the appropriate dose of salt, and those who do have expertise can correct, amend, or complete my statements as needed. There’s a wealth of great information posted in this thread, by **Colibri** , **cmyk** , **iiandyiiii** , **Great Antibob** , and everyone else, a few of whom are in fact experts, I believe, and I greatly appreciate all of it. Hell of a Pit thread ya’ got here, **Miz Olives**. > [@brazil84](#): > > I take it you agree with him when he said this? > > > [@](#): > > > > Yes. Fine. It does not necessarily follow that the intelligence gap between blacks and whites is not substantially genetic in origin. Oops! I think you dropped your context. Oh, yes. Here it is: > [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Yes. Fine. It does not necessarily follow that the intelligence gap between blacks and whites is not substantially genetic in origin. > > It’s _possible_ that, even though “black people” are not a genetic group, even so, by some crazy coincidence, _all_ the branches of the [tree](http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v464/n7290/fig_tab/nature08976_F3.html) leading to groups that you’d call “black people” just happened to develop some genetic mutation, right after splitting off from everyone else, that makes them dumber than non-“black people” groups, _and_ whenever a non-“black people” group separated from a “black people” group, they lost the mutation. Somehow. Maybe aliens did it. Or, we could say God. Whatever. > > It’s roughly equally possible that if we were to take your genetic code, convert it to binary, parse that into hexadecimal, and then translate _that_ into ASCII, it would spell out the full lyrics to “Baby Got Back”. In Farsi. In other words: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s not a concession- yes, it’s conceivable that there could be a genetic component. It’s also conceivable that it could be a massive conspiracy on the part of all white people to keep the black man down. > > There’s the same amount of evidence for both possibilities- none. And here, you’ve been repeating my statement as though it supported your ideas, when it actually refutes them quite neatly. How embarrassing for you. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2298 "2012-06-21T01:58:39Z")
What are you doing **Heart of Dorkness**? You want to be banned from Nowhere-land too? 🙂 Oh well, there is more space in the Yellow Submarine! _And our friends are all aboard Many more of them live next door And the band begins to play…_ ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2299 "2012-06-21T02:05:08Z")
> [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It’s possible that, even though “black people” are not a genetic group, even so, by some crazy coincidence, all the branches of the tree leading to groups that you’d call “black people” just happened to develop some genetic mutation, right after splitting off from everyone else, that makes them dumber than non-“black people” groups, and whenever a non-“black people” group separated from a “black people” group, they lost the mutation. Somehow. Maybe aliens did it. Or, we could say God. Whatever. Well, it’s conceivable that the evolutionary pressures that lead to increased melanin production interfere with, I dunno, neuron linkage or something. Thus even a white population, moved to an equatorial region, would show increasing stupidity after twenty generations or so, assuming they don’t use artificial defenses against UV exposure like sunscreen. Or hats. ---
**Author:** ![Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4bbf92/32.png) [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2300 "2012-06-21T02:11:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, it’s conceivable that the evolutionary pressures that lead to increased melanin production interfere with, I dunno, neuron linkage or something. Thus even a white population, moved to an equatorial region, would show increasing stupidity after twenty generations or so, assuming they don’t use artificial defenses against UV exposure like sunscreen. Or hats. Oh, I am giving you _such_ a look right now… …although, that _would_ explain Jersey Shore… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489.md?page=114) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489.md?page=116)