# SDMB Bigoted Asshole Omnibus Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 29, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489 "2012-05-29T22:59:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 121
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2403 "2012-06-22T17:16:58Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I am simply asking if this principle applies to groups besides races, for example ethnic groups. I take it that you are refusing to answer my question? Whatever might apply to ethnic groups, or national groups, or gender groups, or political groups… there’s a leap being made to _genetic_ groups that is unsupported. > [@](#): > > Also, what exactly is the question you asked me which you say I did not respond to? Please just spell it out in the form of a question. The question from my post #2329 (distinguished by being the only sentence that ends in a question mark) is why I should take you seriously. You’re talking about genetics while simultaneously expressing indifference to genetics. I wouldn’t take seriously someone who wanted to talk about sports while at the same time saying he didn’t care about sports, so why should you get special treatment? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2404 "2012-06-22T17:19:02Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Except that it isn’t, and the gap is significantly lower between blacks in the upper class and whites in the upper class. And even if you were right, that still would not be proof of genetic involvement. Well, if _all_ environmental factors were controlled for _and_ a significant difference were detected through careful statistical means… Of course, I’m not aware that anyone has ever actually done this, so it remains hypothetical. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2405 "2012-06-22T17:20:25Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > i.e. you are not going to let your position be scrutinized. You are the one who is playing games. Right… Because I’m not going to play your word games, I guess you’ll stop looking at my posts too. I still can’t figure out whether you’re an idiot or a troll. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2406 "2012-06-22T17:23:35Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > As to my beliefs about DNA testing for race, I freely admit that I have not studied the issue carefully. Of course, this is irrelevant to my main point, which is that the intelligence gap is largely due to genetics. No, it’s central to a belief in different races. If there are genetic differences between races it should be provable. Prove it. > [@](#): > > Anyway, what is your position on the issue? Do agree or disagree that tests can be done on peoples’ DNA which would do a pretty good (but not perfect) job of sorting people into the traditional categories of Caucasoid; Mongoloid; and Negroid. (And possibly Australoid). > > Or you don’t know either way? I’m waiting on proof, the existence of groups can’t be assumed until it is proven. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2407 "2012-06-22T17:26:03Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > The gap is pretty much universal in space and time. The fact of a gap may be “pretty much” universal in space and time, but the magnitude of that gap varies greatly in both dimensions. Such changes seem to indicate that at least some considerable portion of the gap must not be determined strictly genetically. Do you dispute this? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2408 "2012-06-22T17:28:56Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > In addition, blacks have a rate of violent crime that is over seven times the white rate. Males are overwhelmingly more likely to commit crimes than females, especially violent crimes. So let’s have gender profiling too. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2409 "2012-06-22T17:34:42Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Whatever might apply to ethnic groups, or national groups, or gender groups, or political groups… there’s a leap being made to _genetic_ groups that is unsupported. That makes no sense at all. Do races qualify as “genetic groups” in your view? What about ethnic groups like “Han Chinese”? Look, a few posts back you stated the following: > [@](#): > > if someone wants to claim one race has characteristics another does not, on an on-average advantage another does not, it behooves them to make some token effort at scientifically defining “race”. Do you agree with the following statement: > [@](#): > > if someone wants to claim one ethnic group has characteristics another does not, on an on-average advantage another does not, it behooves them to make some token effort at scientifically defining “ethnic group”. Do you agree with this statement: > [@](#): > > if someone wants to claim one family has characteristics another does not, on an on-average advantage another does not, it behooves them to make some token effort at scientifically defining “family”. These are very simple questions which will let me understand your position. Please either answer or just tell me that you are declining to answer. > [@](#): > > The question from my post #2329 (distinguished by being the only sentence that ends in a question mark) is why I should take you seriously. You’re talking about genetics while simultaneously expressing indifference to genetics. Because it’s not necessary to come up with a genetic definition of any particular group, including a race, to know that some traits of that group are genetically informed. Now please answer my questions. > [@](#): > > I wouldn’t take seriously someone who wanted to talk about sports while at the same time saying he didn’t care about sports, so why should you get special treatment? Let’s run with your analogy: I don’t know a thing about rugby. And yet I am very confident that in a rugby match between a professional rugby team and an average high school rugby team, the professionals would win. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2410 "2012-06-22T17:37:46Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > The fact of a gap may be “pretty much” universal in space and time, but the magnitude of that gap varies greatly in both dimensions. Such changes seem to indicate that at least some considerable portion of the gap must not be determined strictly genetically. Do you dispute this? No I don’t dispute it. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2411 "2012-06-22T17:38:34Z")
Neil Degrasse Tyson is laughing at all of us idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2412 "2012-06-22T17:38:43Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > That makes no sense at all. Do races qualify as “genetic groups” in your view? What about ethnic groups like “Han Chinese”? > > Look, a few posts back you stated the following: > > Do you agree with the following statement: > > Do you agree with this statement: > > These are very simple questions which will let me understand your position. Please either answer or just tell me that you are declining to answer. > > Because it’s not necessary to come up with a genetic definition of any particular group, including a race, to know that some traits of that group are genetically informed. > > Now please answer my questions. > > Let’s run with your analogy: > > I don’t know a thing about rugby. And yet I am very confident that in a rugby match between a professional rugby team and an average high school rugby team, the professionals would win. Word games, nothing but word games… ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2413 "2012-06-22T17:40:14Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > If there are genetic differences between races it should be provable. What proof would you accept? Only identification of specific alleles? > [@](#): > > I’m waiting on proof, the existence of groups can’t be assumed until it is proven. So that means you don’t know? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2414 "2012-06-22T17:41:18Z")
> [@Who\_me\_1](#): > > Word games, nothing but word games… i.e. I’m making coherent posts you happen to disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2415 "2012-06-22T17:51:14Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > i.e. I’m making coherent posts you happen to disagree with. Coherent? Not even close. You are just playing word games because you haven’t understood any of the answers to your inane questions. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2416 "2012-06-22T17:51:23Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > For one thing, it would eliminate discrimination lawsuits which are based primarily on gaps in test scores. Nevermind that these lawsuits aren’t exactly happening all the time, nor likely to have ever affected you personally nor will ever affect you personally, and the extent to which you _could_ be impacted personally is incredibly small and wildly out of proportion with your dogged obsession with the subject----anyone can sue anyone for anything, so the idea that the lawsuits would be “eliminated” is bullshit. What you probably mean is that black plaintiffs would have a reduced chance of _prevailing_ in a discrimination lawsuit, because the counsel for the defense would merely need to mention the unassailable fact that blacks are genetically less intelligent and the plaintiffs are black, ergo they’re \*incapable \*of passing a test, and the judge would have no choice but to immediately dismiss. Which is also a scenario that exists only in the tiny, broken View-Master in your head. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2417 "2012-06-22T17:51:55Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > i.e. you are not going to let your position be scrutinized. You are the one who is playing games. This is very amusing, 84 making this statement, since he finds so many ways to Ban people who are inconvenient and can not respond to simple demandes for response like from Eykers. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2418 "2012-06-22T17:53:20Z")
> [@Who\_me\_1](#): > > Coherent? Not even close. Probably they seem incoherent to you because you are not capable of understanding evidence or arguments which contradict your prejudices. Either that or you’re just stupid. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2419 "2012-06-22T17:58:41Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Probably they seem incoherent to you because you are not capable of understanding evidence or arguments which contradict your prejudices. Either that or you’re just stupid. Is he black? Is that it? ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2420 "2012-06-22T18:12:11Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > That makes no sense at all. Do races qualify as “genetic groups” in your view? What about ethnic groups like “Han Chinese”? See here? This is one of your questions that has been answered multiple times. The Han Chinese are a genetic group, read about their [coherent genetic structure](http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v53/n4/abs/jhg200837a.html). As for your races that you love to rank and rate, they aren’t so genetically well defined. Now, this question has been explained to you again and again and you keep coming back to it. I guess it doesn’t fit in with your pet theory or you are totally lost in the subject matter. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2421 "2012-06-22T18:41:38Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > That makes no sense at all. Do races qualify as “genetic groups” in your view? What about ethnic groups like “Han Chinese”? Your attempts to rank and rate and classify and order everybody neatly by genetics just keeps getting more and more complicated, huh? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2422 "2012-06-22T18:48:43Z")
> [@Who\_me\_1](#): > > See here? This is one of your questions that has been answered multiple times. Not in this context. In the context of answering my question, the reference to “genetic groups” makes no sense at all. I simply was asking if the claim which was being made about race also applied to ethnic groups. Besides which, here’s what **Waenara** said earlier: > [@](#): > > And of course they [Han Chinese, Ashkenazim, & ethnic French] are not “genetic groups” by my definition (or any rational definition). They may be an ethnicity, or a culture, or a traditional socio-economic group, but they are not a “race” or a “genetic group”. I take it this is wrong in your view? If different people in this discussion have different opinions about what qualifies as a “genetic group,” it’s perfectly reasonable for me to ask the same question multiple times of different people. Can I assume that you take the same position as everyone in this thread apart from me and NDD? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489.md?page=120) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489.md?page=122)