# SDMB Bigoted Asshole Omnibus Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 29, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489 "2012-05-29T22:59:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 126
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2503 "2012-06-25T16:13:45Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by “100% known” (that’s your phrase not mine), but I have reasonably concluded that you believe that smoking cigarettes causes lung cancer in humans: Your conclusion is wrong and rather than ascertain the correct facts(like you did below), you made something up. You are a liar. > [@](#): > > You can apologize to me any time you like. Apologize for you lies? That I believe other posters have linked to studies that eliminate other causes? No. Stop trying to weasel your way out of your lies. > [@](#): > > Oh, and since you raised the issue, let me ask you this: Do you accept that to a reasonable degree of certainty (not 100% but a very high percentage), smoking cigarettes is known to cause lung cancer in humans? Not until a pathway is shown. At least that’s my personal belief, you are apparently free to make-up a false one that fits your argument, as you can’t seem to honestly debate. Good-bye, liar. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2504 "2012-06-25T16:32:42Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > By the way, you never answered my question about **Waenara**. > > > [@Waenara](#): > > > > And of course they [Han Chinese, Ashkenazim, & ethnic French] are not “genetic groups” by my definition (or any rational definition). They may be an ethnicity, or a culture, or a traditional socio-economic group, but they are not a “race” or a “genetic group”. > > Agree or disagree? I’ve been away from the thread for a while - and lo and behold I return and find out **b84** is trying to use one tiny snippet of my responses as a “gotcha” to support his position. :rolleyes: At the time I was posting, no one had linked yet to the information about the Han chinese genetic markers. See **b84** - this is how you might try to prove your position - by linking to actual _genetic studies_. I do note, incidentally, that the study identified some actual genetic markers that are shared by many (but by no means all) people who might be traditionally defined based on appearance/family/culture as being part of the Han group. However, it is typical of you to take this one study saying that one ethnic group has some shared genetic markers, and then just assert (without evidence) that it must apply to other groups as well. I mean, the other groups you posited that I was responding to in my quote include “Ashkenazim” and “ethnic French”. Not to mention that a group with more (historically) isolated culture and presumably less gene flow like the Han is _in no way_ comparable, population genetics-speaking, to “the blacks”. If you’re trying to claim that they are “genetic groups” (and not just religious/national groupings or people how have a vaguely similar skin color) then the onus is on you to find actual scientific evidence of that. ::crickets:: ::crickets:: **B84** has been doing so much goalpost moving in this thread it’s not even funny - and then he self-righteously accuses others of doing the same. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2505 "2012-06-25T16:36:55Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > i.e. I disagree with your strongly held faith. No faith involved. I’m going for the preponderance of the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2506 "2012-06-25T16:44:03Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > **B84** has been doing so much goalpost moving in this thread it’s not even funny - and then he self-righteously accuses others of doing the same. What else does he have? He has no scientific studies, no genetic information at all, just his stubbornly held position and his version of logic for dummies. If there had been _any evidence at all_ posted that held to his position that didn’t contain admitted made up numbers, I would have read it and maybe be swayed to at least a more neutral position, but so far… nothing from the racist contingent. ETA: Since NDD is still posting here… no, NDD, your numbers about criminality say nothing about genetics and your racial separations are seriously flawed. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2507 "2012-06-25T19:02:45Z")
So did NDD STFU yet? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2508 "2012-06-25T19:23:46Z")
What happened with the making fun? Mock! Mock! Mock! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2509 "2012-06-25T19:33:05Z")
> [@Who\_me\_1](#): > > What else does he have? He has no scientific studies, no genetic information at all, just his stubbornly held position and his version of logic for dummies. Genes have nothing to do with genetics! ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2510 "2012-06-25T23:51:38Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Your conclusion is wrong and rather than ascertain the correct facts(like you did below), you made something up. Nonsense, you clearly asserted the existence of a study which proves smoking cigarettes causes lung cancer in humans. You even tried (unsuccessfully) to cite such a study. Perhaps you wish you hadn’t said it, but wishes cannot substitute for reality. Of course, there’s nothing wrong with changing your position, but if you do so while pretending you are not, then you are weaseling, i.e. misrepresenting your own position. I do not engage with people who insist on weaseling. Goodbye, liar. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2511 "2012-06-26T00:06:34Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > I’ve been away from the thread for a while - and lo and behold I return and find out **b84** is trying to use one tiny snippet of my responses as a “gotcha” to support his position. :rolleyes: I’m not sure what you mean by “gotcha.” The fact is that different people have different ideas about the “genetic group” concept. Unlike you, I’m not going to assume that everyone on your side of the debate has essentially the same identical position. > [@](#): > > At the time I was posting, no one had linked yet to the information about the Han chinese genetic markers. Another lie. For example, look at Post #1100. > [@](#): > > See **b84** - this is how you might try to prove your position - by linking to actual _genetic studies_. What exactly is my position in your view? > [@](#): > > However, it is typical of you to take this one study saying that one ethnic group has some shared genetic markers, and then just assert (without evidence) that it must apply to other groups as well. Please show me where I did so (or did something similar). Please QUOTE me. Failing that, please admit that I did not such thing and apologize. > [@](#): > > If you’re trying to claim that they are “genetic groups” (and not just religious/national groupings or people how have a vaguely similar skin color) then the onus is on you to find actual scientific evidence of that. ::crickets:: ::crickets:: I’m not trying to claim that any group is a “genetic group” since there isn’t a clear, generally accepted definition of the phrase. > [@](#): > > **B84** has been doing so much goalpost moving in this thread it’s not even funny - and then he self-righteously accuses others of doing the same. Please show me where I have done so. Please QUOTE me. Failing that, please admit I did no such thing and apologize. Also, please answer the questions I asked you in Post #2237. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2512 "2012-06-26T00:08:30Z")
> [@Who\_me\_1](#): > > No faith involved. I’m going for the preponderance of the evidence. I’m sure it seems that way to you. But perhaps the mote is in your own eye? After all, it was perfectly reasonable for me to ask the same question multiple times of different people. And yet you criticized me for it. You don’t even deny any more that your criticism was baseless. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2513 "2012-06-26T02:16:28Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > The fact is that different people have different ideas about the “genetic group” concept. Then you should pick one and stick to it. Put that goalpost in the dirt and don’t move it. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2514 "2012-06-26T02:32:24Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > What happened with the making fun? Mock! Mock! Mock! I’m trying! But it’s almost like… I dunno. **Endie** and **Brazzy** are mad at me, or something! ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2515 "2012-06-26T03:18:54Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > > [@Waenara](#): > > > > See b84 - this is how you might try to prove your position - by linking to actual genetic studies. > > What exactly is my position in your view? _Your position_ is that “blacks” are less intelligent than others, and this intelligence gap is determined by their genetics. And all I was saying is that if you think an intelligence gap is due to genetics, and you want to convince anyone else that you’re correct, then you need to produce evidence that there actually is a genetic difference that is linked to intelligence. > [@b84](#): > > > [@Waenara](#): > > > > However, it is typical of you to take this one study saying that one ethnic group has some shared genetic markers, and then just assert (without evidence) that it must apply to other groups as well. > > Please show me where I did so (or did something similar). Please QUOTE me. Failing that, please admit that I did not such thing and apologize. Well, aside from the intelligence gap and genetics, this thread also has you and **NDD** asserting (without evidence) that there are three or four major “races”, and that by examining an individual’s DNA and tell which group they belong to. The study about the Han indicates that _some_ members of that group tend to have particular genetic markers. However, you can’t then take that and then assume any other given traditional “racial” or ethnic group must have similar markers. Vis-a-vis your hypotheticals about Ashkenazim and assuming that they must have genetics in common that distinguish them from other groups - despite having no genetic evidence of that. I must say that I’m amused by your continued demands that others must quote you or else apologize. And yet you continually demand that others respond to particular posts by number from many pages or thousands of posts ago, and you’re too lazy to actually quote those posts or just re-ask the questions you’re interested in. Meanwhile, others in this thread have had to re-ask you the exact same questions (word for word) dozens of times to get you to finally respond. > [@B84](#): > > Also, please answer the questions I asked you in Post #2237. You asked me a bunch of questions in that post. I have no interest in continuing to parse each others posts back and forth and answering each sentence in each post, however I will answer the questions you asked in that particular post. > [@brazil84](#): > > The point is that even with arbitrarily defined “Races,” it’s still logically possible to (1) observe average differences between those races; and (2) conclude that much of the difference is due to genetics. > > I take it you agree with this? No. Do you have no reading comprehension ability whatsoever? Seriously? When you observe a “difference between races” all it tells you is that there is an observed difference. It tells you nothing about the etiology of that difference. For that you would need what we call _evidence_ - not just conclusions you pull out of your ass based on a gut feeling. > [@b84](#): > > > [@Waenara](#): > > > > So even if I stipulate that there are some differences in the DNA between populations that may in some cases correspond to traditional ethnic or "racial: groups, these differences wouldn’t necessarily correspond to coding sections of DNA that affect gene expression or a particular phenotype or physical trait. > > > > Of course there are measurable genetic differences between population groups, but it’s pretty messy and it’s impossible to draw neat “race” categories around those groups. > > I take it this means “yes”? i.e. you concede that (1) there are observable differences among ethnic groups which (2) are due in large part to genetics? Have you always been this stupid? I gave you a detailed post about how if there are genetic differences between groups, those genetic differences don’t necessarily mean there is any actual difference in functioning genes. Even if (hypothetically) you were to find genetic markers that were unique to a particular group, it wouldn’t necessarily follow that this would lead to any difference in their biology, if the difference is found in the large part of human DNA that is “junk” or non-coding DNA. And even if the difference is found within working genes (which would require _evidence_, which you don’t have), it wouldn’t necessarily mean that the magnitude of the difference caused by the genes is large. For example, I could easily image a hypothetical gene linked to intelligence being found, but having a relatively small effect compared to the environment. Differences in early fetal development, childhood nutrition and education, value systems and culture, differences in life opportunities, socioeconomic status, income, healthcare, etc… could easily have a large enough effect to swamp a hypothetical small difference in genetics. My post also discussed how population genetics can define hundreds of ethnic/geographic groups that have shared genetic differences, but this is absolutely nothing to do with your assertion that there are a few major races. On the basis of genetics and _evidence_, there are either \*hundreds \*of human races, or there is _one_. And all you do is look at that and just say “Ah Ha! So you concede there might be differences in genetics between ethnic groups!” :smack: Talk about missing the point. > [@b84](#): > > > [@Waenara](#): > > > > It’s ridiculous. You have repeatedly derided “Pure Environmentalists” (IIRC that’s the name of the straw man you set up?). “Nature versus Nurture” debates have always seemed stupid to me, because it seems obvious that most of the time people’s behaviors are not Nature or Nurture - they’re both. > > So you concede that much of the observed achievement gap between blacks and whites is likely to be due to genetics? No. Again - do you have no reading comprehension whatsoever? How on earth can you read a post that says that in general both Nature _and_ Nurture are important in varying degrees, and then say that **much** of the intelligence gap is due to genetics? I would say it is _possible_ intelligence _may_ be _in part_ influenced by genetics. However, you have absolutely **no** evidence to assert that “much” of an observed gap in intelligence testing is due to genetics. It could just as easily be that “a very tiny part” of the gap is due to genetics. You have no evidence to support your assumption about how important genetics is for intelligence, and saying that the differences are significant between “races” is even more asinine when you cannot consistently define what those races are (and have even said that you have no interest in actually defining the races genetically, despite attributing genetic differences to them). :smack: Again, I have no interest in continuing to sentence-by-sentence parsing of my posts. Especially when you repeatedly post the same arguments over and over again, ignoring the others is this thread who have repeatedly dismantled your arguments. If you have any further questions to my post that are _original_ and not completely moronic, I will respond. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2516 "2012-06-26T09:07:44Z")
> [@Waenara](#): > > _Your position_ is that “blacks” are less intelligent than others, and this intelligence gap is determined by their genetics. No, that’s not my position. Again you demonstrate that you are lying when you claim to have read the thread. My position is that a substantial part of the gap is the result of genetics. > [@](#): > > And all I was saying is that if you think an intelligence gap is due to genetics, and you want to convince anyone else that you’re correct, then you need to produce evidence that there actually is a genetic difference that is linked to intelligence. You seem to think that it’s necessary to point to actual genes (actually alleles) to do this. Which it is obviously not. > [@](#): > > The study about the Han indicates that _some_ members of that group tend to have particular genetic markers. However, you can’t then take that and then assume any other given traditional “racial” or ethnic group must have similar markers. I made no such assumption. Or assertion. Which is why you are unable to show me where I did. I have my own rules of debate, and one rule is that I will not engage with people who strawman me, i.e. who misrepresent my position. Since you have done so repeatedly, this exchange is over. Welcome to my ignore list. And goodbye, liar. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2517 "2012-06-26T09:28:15Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Since you have done so repeatedly, this exchange is over. Welcome to my ignore list. And goodbye, liar. Cowardly troll is cowardly. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2518 "2012-06-26T09:52:53Z")
Does he not understand how nonsense this last response is? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2519 "2012-06-26T10:21:06Z")
He understands. He doesn’t comprehend. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2520 "2012-06-26T10:42:46Z")
Brazil84 - the new Oxford definition of stupidity, ignorance while being a complete shit-for-brains retard. So, when you have a really dumb individual in front of you, just ask it:\* Are you a Brazil84? Since you look and sound like a complete retard. \* ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2521 "2012-06-26T11:16:42Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > Brazil84 - the new Oxford definition of stupidity, ignorance while being a complete shit-for-brains retard. Lol, i.e. I have dared to point out the fallacies advanced by the politically correct. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2012, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/2522 "2012-06-26T11:26:23Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Lol, i.e. I have dared to point out the fallacies advanced by the politically correct. I guess, but then again you are a racist – that’s it! Whatever argument you try to bring up, this is what it boils down to – you are a racist. Don’t try to make excuses for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489.md?page=125) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489.md?page=127)