# SDMB Bigoted Asshole Omnibus Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 29, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489 "2012-05-29T22:59:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 157
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/3123 "2012-06-29T18:59:19Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > No need to take it back – since you never met the condition. Oh, I think I did. Possibly you’re misremembering the condition. > [@](#): > > I do think you owe NDD an apology for lying about what he said. And you’re cheerfully invited to continue doing so. Anyway, let this be an object lesson for others - even if you get an apology offer from brazil84, and you accept it, he won’t let it go. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/3124 "2012-06-29T19:00:30Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > If that author agrees with anyone, he agrees with Hentor. Nope. He may be saying that Hentor’s definition should be accepted, but not that it is. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/3125 "2012-06-29T19:01:01Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I don’t think many people, even professionals, would call it a mental “illness” though. And yet, here I am. You might also want to ask the National Alliance on Mental Illness, the biggest pro-sumer advocacy group for mental illness. > [@](#): > > In the real world there is. You’re stuck in your professional perspective. You may be right when you’re at some professional conference, but using your professional terms in the real world is a different issue. I can assure you that I spend most of my time in the real world. > [@](#): > > P.S. you will find this interesting: > > [http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...mental-illness](http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...mental-illness) I must admit that I do not read Psychology Today. However, the article seems to be making the same point I am. I would, like the author, primarily wonder about this whole discussion “[…] what is autism being distanced from?” It seems to be important to you, and that’s fine. I won’t try to change your mind. You just have to understand that when you say “Autism is not a mental illness,” you’re saying something that to most other people doesn’t make much sense. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/3126 "2012-06-29T19:02:26Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Autism mental illness gets 6 million hits on google. I’d say that’s enough to say the real world doesn’t see a problem with it. That’s absurd. “autism developmental disability” get 22 million hits. Does that mean anything either? You only proved that there are 6 million sites that have all those words. Big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/3127 "2012-06-29T19:02:37Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Nope. > > He may be saying that Hentor’s definition should be accepted, but not that it is. No, he’s saying that it is the definition for people in the industry and that some people for whatever reason are attempting to reject it baselessly. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/3128 "2012-06-29T19:03:59Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > That’s absurd. > > “autism developmental disability” get 22 million hits. Does that mean anything either? > > You only proved that there are 6 million sites that have all those words. Big deal. Yeah, that 6 million places are talking about autism within the framework of mental illness. You said that the real world doesn’t think of it like that. The internet is the real world and it does. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/3129 "2012-06-29T19:07:35Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > And yet, here I am. And you need to get out in the real world more. > [@](#): > > You might also want to ask the National Alliance on Mental Illness, the biggest pro-sumer advocacy group for mental illness.I can assure you that I spend most of my time in the real world. What does NAMI say about this? “Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASDs) are complex **developmental disorders** of brain function.” [http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=By\_Illness&Template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=66225](http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=By_Illness&Template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=66225) Now, if you go ask NAMI, they may say “yeah, it’s fair to call it a mental illness.” But they don’t go around doing it. > [@](#): > > I must admit that I do not read Psychology Today. However, the article seems to be making the same point I am. I would, like the author, primarily wonder about this whole discussion “[…] what is autism being distanced from?” The point he’s making is that autism is not termed a mental illness, but that he thinks the reason is stigma, and that it’s close enough to mental illness that we ought to reject stigma and embrace it. Which is a nice point about the stigmas. > [@](#): > > It seems to be important to you, and that’s fine. I won’t try to change your mind. You just have to understand that when you say “Autism is not a mental illness,” you’re saying something that to most other people doesn’t make much sense. You need to understand that the language that people are out there using, especially in the autism community, doesn’t reflect what you professionals are using in your back rooms and papers, even if you are the ones who get to make the official terms. That’s all I’m saying. If you go out a speak to an autism group or something and call it a mental illness, you’ll get lots of quizzical looks and a few angry retorts. You can have this debate with them to if you want, but it will take a while to reach everyone. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/3130 "2012-06-29T19:09:08Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Yeah, that 6 million places are talking about autism within the framework of mental illness. False. It means that 6 million sites have “autism,” “mental,” and “illness” on them. Nothing more. A site that says “autism is most definitely NOT a mental illness” would come up as one of your hits! Don’t try this, it’s silly. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/3131 "2012-06-29T19:11:27Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > No, he’s saying that it is the definition for people in the industry and that some people for whatever reason are attempting to reject it baselessly. What has happened is that they have already rejected it. He believes they want it to be official due to stigma. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/3132 "2012-06-29T19:17:56Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I am a professional. What you have written makes no sense. We do not make distinctions like this between mental illness or mental disorder. We do not exclude disorders from these categories due to their developmental nature. > > Also, Autistic Disorder (299.00) is an Axis I Diagnosis, as are all the other Pervasive Developmental Disorders (Asperger’s Disorder, Rett’s Disorder, Childhood Disintegrative Disorder and of course PDD NOS). > > Axis II Diagnoses are exclusively the personality disorders and mental retardation. Out of curiosity, do you think Brazil84 exhibits symptoms of autistic disorder or Asperger’s disorder, or is that the kind of thing you can’t tell from message board posts? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/3133 "2012-06-29T19:18:51Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Now, if you go ask NAMI, they may say “yeah, it’s fair to call it a mental illness.” But they don’t go around doing it. Excuse me, please, but it is right there on the NAMI website under the heading “Mental Illnesses”: [http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=By\_Illness&Template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=66225](http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=By_Illness&Template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=66225) Also, here’s something posted on the Autism Speaks website: [http://www.autismspeaks.org/blog/2012/04/25/autism-news-042512](http://www.autismspeaks.org/blog/2012/04/25/autism-news-042512) > [@](#): > > As director of the Seaver Autism Center at Mount Sinai, Dr. Joseph Buxbaum specializes in the neurobiology of psychiatric illnesses like autism. April is National Autism Awareness Month. I’m sorry that you feel it is stigmatizing. People want to change the name “Mental Retardation” as well, due to stigma. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/3134 "2012-06-29T19:26:43Z")
Just so we don’t lose site of the real issue at hand, I wanted to leave all the other stuff behind and get back to this: > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > You yourself just cited a source that demonstrated that accounting for impoverished environmental factors explained the observed differences in academic achievement between African American and White youth. > > Let me repeat that for emphasis: You yourself just cited a source that demonstrated that accounting for impoverished environmental factors explained the observed differences in academic achievement between African American and White youth. > > And you have a tiny penis. Please note the following: **New Deal Democrat** linked to a source that demonstrated that **accounting for impoverished environmental factors explained the observed differences in academic achievement between African American and White youth**. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/3135 "2012-06-29T19:29:51Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > poverty does not explain the disparity between Blacks and Whites in secondary school performance. Take poverty out of the picture entirely by examining equally affluent Blacks and Whites living in the same communities and the disparity in academic performance remains. > > In social science terms, the disparity is statistically robust. It is not an artifact of one or another way of analyzing the data. It leaps out of the data no matter how one approaches the analysis, and it seems about equally severe in every region of the nation, in every demographic mix, in urban, suburban, and rural schools, and in impoverished, median-income, and affluent communities alike. > [http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=17985](http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=17985) > > * * * > > IQ Scores of Blacks and Whites Regress toward the Averages of Their Race. Parents pass on only some exceptional genes to offspring so parents with very high IQs tend to have more average children. Black and White children with parents of IQ 115 move to different averages–Blacks toward 85 and Whites to 100. > [http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx#id\_d90f8fc5-74e1-46ab-bd03-eafd0730133a](http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx#id_d90f8fc5-74e1-46ab-bd03-eafd0730133a) YOU DISHONEST ASSHOLE: From the **same summary** you **(SELECTIVELY)** quoted from: "… (the researcher [Ogbu]) rightly observes that his study of “community forces” in generating the gap in student performance does not, logically or empirically, negate the possibility of “societal forces” also affecting Black student performance. ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/3136 "2012-06-29T19:41:24Z")
When your OWN CITE disputes the point you are trying to defend, well, you can’t lose a debate any worse than that. Game over. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/3137 "2012-06-29T19:55:41Z")
> [@Truman\_Burbank](#): > > When your OWN CITE disputes the point you are trying to defend, well, you can’t lose a debate any worse than that. Wrong! He’s just getting started! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/3138 "2012-06-29T19:57:13Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Just so we don’t lose site of the real issue at hand, I wanted to leave all the other stuff behind and get back to this:Please note the following: **New Deal Democrat** linked to a source that demonstrated that **accounting for impoverished environmental factors explained the observed differences in academic achievement between African American and White youth**. Yeah, but he hasn’t been using foul language, so he’s still winning! Science! ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/3139 "2012-06-29T22:12:42Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The durability of the race gap in both academic performance and crime gives impressive evidence for biological differences. All that remains is the discovery of genes for intelligence and crime, and the corresponding discovery that these genes are unevenly distributed between the races. Those discoveries will be more than evidence, they will be proof that ends the debate. > > Meanwhile, the burden of proof is in those who claim that the races are biologically equivalent. **NO** , **the burden is on YOU** to proof, that there is a difference. After all, it is \*\*YOU \*\*who says that there is a difference – So proof it! You can‘t? Well to bad, until **YOU can proof it, YOU are WRONG**. Which makes you a _ **liar** _! ---
**Author:** ![Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4bbf92/32.png) [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/3140 "2012-06-29T22:18:18Z")
You know, **NDD** , I don’t normally do this kind of thing, but I think this bears repeating, in giant red letters: > [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Let me repeat that for emphasis: You yourself just cited a source that demonstrated that accounting for impoverished environmental factors explained the observed differences in academic achievement between African American and White youth. > > And you have a tiny penis. Here’s the problem. You read something quickly and cursorily, and thought you understood it, but unfortunately, it turned out to mean the exact opposite of what you thought. Don’t worry; [it happens to a lot of people](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/sns-la-pn-fox-cnn-blow-it-in-initial-calls-on-supreme-court-healthcare-ruling-20120628,0,1734007.story). The section that you quote below is the introduction to the study you cite. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > What are the causes of this persistent gap in achievement? In study after study, scholars have investigated the effects of differences among white and black students in their socioeconomic status, family structure, and neighborhood characteristics and in the quality of their schools. To be sure, socioeconomic status and the trappings of poverty are important factors in explaining racial differences in educational achievement. Yet **a substantial gap remains even after these crucial influences are accounted for**. > [http://educationnext.org/fallingbehind/](http://educationnext.org/fallingbehind/) I can see why you found this statement appealing, but you \*really \*shouldn’t have stopped reading there. Here are the _very next_ two paragraphs [bolding mine]: > [@](#): > > Gaining a better understanding of what causes the test-score gap is of great importance because eliminating the gap could yield great advances in the well-being of African-Americans. In separate studies, Derek Neal and William Johnson in 1996 and June O’Neill in 1990 found that most of the wage gap between black and white adults disappears once the data are adjusted to reflect their scores on the Armed Forces Qualifying Test; in other words, those adults with similar scores earned similar wages. Thus closing the test-score gaps that emerge in high school may be a critical prerequisite to reducing wage inequality between the races. As scholars Christopher Jencks and Meredith Phillips write, “Reducing the black-white test score gap would do more to promote racial equality than any other strategy that commands broad political support.” > > To take a fresh look at the gap and its sources, we examined a new data set, the Early Childhood Longitudinal Study Kindergarten Cohort, compiled by the U.S. Department of Education. **The results are quite surprising: after adjusting the data for the effects of only a few observable characteristics, the black-white test-score gap in math and reading for students entering kindergarten essentially disappeared. Put simply, white and black children with similar personal and family background characteristics achieved similar test scores (see Figure 1).** You see, they’re providing context - results of past studies - in _contrast_ to their findings. Just to make it completely clear: they’re saying, “In the past, studies haven’t been able to account for the entire gap… BUT OURS DOES!” The results detailing how this happens and the conclusions the researchers draw have already been highlighted by **Hentor** and **GIGOBuster**. But allow me to draw your attention to one more crucial point: _Why_ are these results different from those in the past? Why was this study able to eliminate the gap while others could not completely? Let’s hear what the researchers have to say [again, bolding mine]: > [@](#): > > Why do our results differ so sharply from those of previous research? There are three leading explanations: 1) the sample of children included in the data set used by Phillips, the Children of the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth (CNLSY), especially in the early years, may be nonrepresentative; 2) better information on students’ background characteristics is available in the Early Childhood survey; and 3) blacks born into recent cohorts have made real gains relative to blacks born a decade earlier. > > Although plausible, the first two explanations appear to play only a small role empirically. **However, real gains by blacks in recent cohorts do appear to be an important part of the divergence between our results and past research. By limiting the CNLSY data to cohorts born in the same years as the children in our data set, we found raw test-score gaps only half as large as those found in the earlier cohorts of data used by Phillips and remarkably close to those found in our data set.** In other words: black kids now are doing better than black kids born just 10 years earlier. So _much_ better that taking a few social factors into account **now fully eliminates the gap**. That means that either a) efforts to create equality of opportunity and erase prejudice are indeed having a very positive effect on new generations of black children, or b) all black kids everywhere suddenly and simultaneously developed the mutant intelligence gene, within a ten-year span. While I have to admit b) would be totally awesome in a comic-book superhero kind of way, logic resolutely directs me back to a). ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/3141 "2012-06-29T22:37:55Z")
> [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > While I have to admit b) would be totally awesome in a comic-book superhero kind of way, logic resolutely directs me back to a). Then there is option c): NDD simply just does not like black people and personally hates them regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489/3142 "2012-06-29T22:56:28Z")
Can we _please_ stop talking about **NDD** ’s penis? It’s bad enough that he’s intellectually impotent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489.md?page=156) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-bigoted-asshole-omnibus-thread/623489.md?page=158)