# SDMB Diplomacy 2004. Shall we play a game? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 15, 2004, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291 "2004-10-15T00:13:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![garius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e19b73/32.png) [@garius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garius)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291/21 "2004-10-15T19:14:09Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > What the hell, use me if you need someone to fill a slot. It’ll be fun to stand with **Omni** on the unemployment line. What we need here in the USA is a good dole to live off of in those times when you just have to Dip. > [@](#): > > One warm autumn day i awoke around eleven to take lunch. As i was dressing, my valet entered and informed me that i had a guest waiting for me in my reception room. > > I enquired as to the name of the gentleman present, but was told that he had refused to give it. > > “He asked only that i impart to you a message - and that i do it word for word” My valet explained. > > Intrigued, i bade my valet to repeat the words that my mysterious guest had been keen for me to hear. > > “He said,” my Valet continued, “That he fought beside you in Russia, and at one time he had the honour of calling you ‘friend.’ And though he did you a great wrong, that is an honour he would like to have once again, should you wish it.” > > Despite my best efforts, I could not determine the identity of my enigmatic guest from the content of his message. This disturbed me, for I always felt that i owed an enormous debt to those captains and generals who had fought, and in some cases fallen, by my side in my campaigns and had endeavoured to stay in touch with those who still survived. Indeed there were none who i could remember who had ever wronged me in anything more than a fight for a dancing girl’s virtue! > > After dressing quickly, i went down to the reception room and entered to see a man whom i did not initially recognise. He was older than myself with a shock of seemingly unmanageable white hair and deep lines around his eyes. He was relatively well dressed, although his once fine suit was slightly frayed around the edges. > > It was several seconds before i realised that the man standing before me was **Shibboleth** - the last Archduke of Austria, the man who had led his armies in support of my campaigns in Russia, and the man who had ultimately betrayed me to my enemies. > > There was a brief silence between us, which was finally broken by **Shibboleth**. > > “So you recognise me then?” > > “I do.” > > “You wish me to leave?” > > “I do not.” > > This seemed to take him by surprise, but he recovered his composure quickly and smiled. > > “I suppose we have much to talk about Sultan.” > > In the end, we spent the whole day together, talking about the old times and about how things had worked out. About our campaigns and our tactics - what went well and what went bad. Talking as if we were still old friends, rather than the betrayer and betrayee that history has recorded. > > Eventually he said that he had to leave, but still something seemed to bother him. As i bid him goodnight, the old man motioned me close and whispered in my ear: > > “I do not understand. You treat me like on old friend yet i know that i do not deserve this. Why does my presence not anger?” > > At this i couldn’t help but laugh. > > “ **Shibb** ,” I chuckled, patting him on the back, “I bear you no grudge. In truth, i pity you. The Italians offered you my kingdom, old friend, me? i offered you the world…” [RIGHT]_– A life in Exile - The Diaries of Sultan **Garius** of Turkey_[/RIGHT] ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291/22 "2004-10-15T19:21:28Z")
That, sir, was genius! ---
**Author:** ![garius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e19b73/32.png) [@garius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garius)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291/23 "2004-10-15T19:34:09Z")
Hey its true - i had fucking Russia on its _knees_ you silly sod. We could have kicked arse! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291/24 "2004-10-15T20:23:10Z")
> [@garius](#): > > Hey its true - i had fucking Russia on its _knees_ you silly sod. We could have kicked arse! 😉 This time I shall endeavour to truly stick it to the Russkies. Unless they end up being me. In which case I shall crush the soulless life from their bodies, as any great Russian leader would his own people. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291/25 "2004-10-15T21:25:29Z")
Well, except the fact that you never sent me an email and others got in ahead of you early this morning. I say you team up with Garius and **fight Ming!** ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291/26 "2004-10-15T21:33:22Z")
Le jeu s’ont fait! Our players: Lobsang - England Garfield - Turkey Lockz - Germany grimpixie - Italy Garius - Russia Omniscient - France ??? - Austria Note that Austria hasn’t yet identified his handle to me and therefore he’s a man of mystery. I’m sure not giving his real name here. There will be a web site up shortly for the game. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291/27 "2004-10-15T21:45:52Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > Well, except the fact that you never sent me an email and others got in ahead of you early this morning. I say you team up with Garius and **fight Ming!** I thought there might have been one of those email catches but I didn’t read the OP carefully enough. When you start droning on about the rules and all my ADD/ADHD kicks in. 🙂 Anyway, I can be your stand by for when you need a replacement. Want me to send an email to verify that? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291/28 "2004-10-16T01:13:09Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > Note that Austria hasn’t yet identified his handle to me and therefore he’s a man of mystery. I’m sure not giving his real name here. Oops, sorry. Austria checking in. Ready to beat you girlie men. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291/29 "2004-10-16T14:45:38Z")
Before we start, I’d like a little clarification on the rules. Actually, not so much the rules as the flavor of play. Two months ago I was fortunate enough to be involved in two LARPs, both based on [Harn](http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/query/cfg/allharnitems.cfg). While that is a FRPG, both of these LARPs were completely diceless, mapless, and statless. Both involved nothing but negotiations, and all matters were settled at roundtable discussions (or backroom deals). Sometimes the backroom discussions would go on for hours. Promises were made, alliances were made, kept, and broken, and there was much backstabbing. In case you’re curious, one LARP involved a dead king who didn’t name a successor. He left behind no fewer than 15 sons, cousins, neices, and nephews who all had some claim to the throne. We spent about 4 hours in private negotiations before the first council was even convened. The other was about two factions of clan heads locked in a dispute about a knife. (and a supposed “victim” who was locked in a room with an 8-year-girl, who he claimed beat him up, when it was clear that he just fell down on some furniture. Repeatedly.) The dispute escalated into discussions of trade agreements, accusations of piracy, and ideological (and religious) battles between the conservative and liberal factions. All of this was moderated by the king, who, of course, had his own agenda. Once again, negotiations lasted about 4 hours, while actual roundtable discussions lasted only about an hour. Years before this, I played a lot of Risk. While the rules encourage diplomacy, I found that we were far more concerned with building armies and being rules lawyers than with discussion. It pretty much devolved into a standard boardgame. Alliances were usually little more than “Let’s not attack each other for 3 turns, OK?” In the computer game, this is all they are. So what is Diplomacy like? Are people more concerned with the map than with discussion? I find it interesting that the rules spend the bulk of pages on armies, support, and convoys, and a scant paragraph on negotiations. Can someone give me an example of how negotiations might go? What might be a typical “deal”? What percentage of the game would be given to discussion as opposed to mechanical tactics? Bear in mind that I’m up for this either way, but I’d like to know what I’m getting into. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lockz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Lockz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lockz)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291/30 "2004-10-16T16:37:22Z")
Do you want preliminary orders and final orders? Also, will we be using press? ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291/31 "2004-10-16T18:14:53Z")
I’ve never played but always wanted to. Will you except a newb? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291/32 "2004-10-16T20:42:32Z")
This game is already full but perhaps one of the other GMs around will offer to start one. Prelims will be accepted but are not required. I prefer press be sent by players. I don’t allow anonymous press in my games unless that specific game is designed for such. **tdn** , one gets out of Diplomacy what you put into it. Simply put, one cannot win a game of Diplomacy without negotiating (heavily) with the other players unless one knows that none of the others are negotiating either. There is a variant called ‘gunboat Diplomacy’ that entails no negotiations but it’s more a tactics game than a strategy game. If I were to play in a gunboat game in which two players were allowed to communicate but none of the others were I would lay HEAVY odds that the two who communicate would win…big and fast. Negotiations are the heart and soul of the game. The reason they’re not defined in the rules (other than 15 minutes and ‘no negotiating during retreats and winter’) is that there is little to define. “GO FORTH…SPEAK” would look odd in the rules. In short, the Diplomacy rules are there to provide the mechanics. The players make the game. Here’s a resource site for you all: [The Diplomatic Pouch.](http://www.diplom.org) ---
**Author:** ![Lockz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Lockz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lockz)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291/33 "2004-10-16T20:52:01Z")
When are we starting? ---
**Author:** ![Lockz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Lockz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lockz)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291/34 "2004-10-16T20:53:27Z")
Also, are you going to email us the names of everyone along with their email addresses? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2004, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291/35 "2004-10-16T20:54:07Z")
Shortly, actually. The site for the game is up! [http://www.wooleysark.com/dip/SDMB](http://www.wooleysark.com/dip/SDMB) I have decided to name this game…Heartspark Dollarsign. Go forth, negotiate. All that you need is on that page, maps, contacts, what-have-you. Rules questions and such go to me. You know how to reach me! ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2004, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291/36 "2004-10-17T08:37:32Z")
Italy eh?? That’ll teach me for not expressing a preference at the outset 😉 Pizza has already conqured the world, why shouldn’t I do the same? Grim ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291/37 "2004-10-17T15:18:06Z")
Three real quick questions from the newbie here, also copied to **Jonathan Chance** : 1. I’m a little unclear on how to get new forces. Let’s say, for example, that I’m playing Austria (as a random example :)). My first move is A bud-rum in the spring. In the fall, I move A rum-bul. In both cases, all of my holdings are uncontested. Does this mean that I get 2 new forces in the fall, in bud and rum, since I last controlled both supply centers, for a total of 5? Let’s then say that I move A bul-gre, and for some reason get disbanded from vie and bud. Since I still control rum and bul, do I get more forces there again, for a total of three? (I still hold tri). Assuming vie and bud remain unoccupied, do I still get more forces there? Or do I have to retake them? The rules are sort of unclear on this. 1. The rules list 2 seasons – spring and fall. The SDMB page lists winter as well. What’s up with that? 2. Can my e-mail addy be changed to [nealtodd@comcast.net](mailto:nealtodd@comcast.net)? I’d rather play from home than from work. Yes, this means that all of my replies to negotiations will be made at around 7-9pm EST (12-2am GMT), but at least I won’t get fired that way. Sorry about my thickness here, I fully intend to be well-versed in the rules by submission of first orders. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2004, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291/38 "2004-10-17T15:36:42Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > This game is already full but perhaps one of the other GMs around will offer to start one. I’m not Dirty Mary, y’know. You can say my name aloud. You know what would be neat? A Chaos game. Boy, it sure would be hard to win one of those games. 🆒 OK, if 7 more people want to play, I’ll run the overflow game. Post here if you’re interested. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291/39 "2004-10-17T15:41:33Z")
Hey! I just checked your webpage, and you never completed the last turn on Penguin Hearding or listed the eventual winner on the index page. Whatta ya trying to pull? Trying to diminish the glory of Holland, are you? :wally ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2004, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291/40 "2004-10-17T16:50:59Z")
Right, no problem. It’s what I’m here for. Supply Centers (SC in the lingo) can be OCCUPIED in any Spring or Fall turn. But CONTROL (and therefore ownership) is only determined at the end of the FALL turn. So in your scenario below you have A bud – rum then A rum – bul. So you would NOT be occupying rum in the fall therefore you do NOT control it. For purposes of building new units you may ONLY get credit for bul. New units are built when, at the end of the fall turn your number of SC’s controlled EXCEEDS your number of units. If this is the case you may build new units. If your number of SC’s controls is FEWER than the number of units you must DISBAND units until your UNITS are equal to your SC. Note, also, that units may ONLY be built in your home SC (the ones you begin the game with). Note also that each province may only have one unit at a time in it. So if you have the right to build 3 units but two of your home SCs are occupied by your own forces you only get to build one unit that turn. So heads up. As for turns the game flows in this manner (more detailed than in the rules): Spring Orders Spring Retreats Fall Orders Fall Retreats Winter (Builds and Disbands) Calling it ‘Winter’ is merely player shorthand for that space of time used for builds and disbands. Note, again, that units may also be disbanded in three other ways. 1. If a unit is dislodged by an attack and has no possible retreat then that unit is destroyed and may not be replaced until the next Winter phase in which you are eligible to build a unit. 2. If two units (from any countries) are dislodged and submit retreats to the same space then they are both disbanded. 3. If one of your units is dislodged you may ELECT to disband it instead of retreating to an adjacent space. This is rare but circumstances do bring it about. Also, remember that you may NOT retreat to any space that has been contested the previous turn. How’s that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-2004-shall-we-play-a-game/269291.md?page=3)