# SDMB Diplomacy **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 5, 2009, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964 "2009-07-05T09:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/301 "2009-08-07T01:14:05Z")
[from the other thread] > [@SDMB Diplomacy Commentary](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy-commentary/502057/70): > > Wasn’t poorly entered. England decided to get creative. He’s lucky France didn’t bounce him there or else we’d have been well fucked. I thought we agreed last night that the bounce was, while not the optimal outcome, a desireable one since it kept him out of the Channel, giving a clear path to my other fleet now in the N. Atlantic. \ ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/302 "2009-08-07T02:19:56Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Did you even read what I wrote? You rather Russia, now breathing down your neck, not have to disband something because he got Norway, with a fleet up there which could seriously prance around behind my lines? Were you counting on Russia being a bit obtuse and not supporting himself into Norway (a support is just a hold with something extra added, after all)? Perhaps next turn I’ll just announce to the board what every single one of my moves will be… \ > > And I’ll note that you could have gotten him out of Burgundy this turn, as long as we’re doing some Monday morning cornerbacking. Yeah, we got that pesky fleet in the Channel (something I tried to control, tho it was an arguably sound move by Tristan). > > \ You’ve apparently played this game long enough to know just how complex all the variables and permutations can be. I tried, a la the Prisoner’s dilemma, to find the right combination of moves which would maximize my gains while minimizing my potential losses, keeping in mind all the interpersonal stuff too and the open press aspect of this game. If one guessed right every single turn it’d be kind of boring, wouldn’t it? > > We are still in a good position, but it could certainly be worse. Let’s stop blaming each other and work on next year. > > [Now I remember why I stopped playing this game for several years.] I understand that things essentially amounted to the same and that there were risks all around. I’m just bothered that you just weren’t upfront about it. If you were going to take the safe route anyways, what’s the harm in letting others know what you are doing? By lying and ordering differently than you promised you did nothing to better our position against our enemies and all you accomplished was make it even harder for me to trust you. What were the upsides to your duplicity? If you felt strongly that Russia would be aggressive in the north and that my aggressive moves were too risky what would have been changed if you’d have just told me that and let me move my units accordingly? Hell, if you’d have just said that you didn’t want too coordinate openly due to the open press right now at least it would have kept our status as trusted allies nominal as opposed lessened. Trust is a valuable commodity. I had considered moving towards Belgium instead of supporting you because I figured a bounce is a bounce, but realized that a bounce in Belgium did nothing to benefit us and would hurt my credibility. No irreparable damage was done and our plans will probably continue to work fine, so it’s not that big of a deal, but only so much lying about ones moves can be explained away. We’re lucky that France vacated Pie. If he were still there and I couldn’t cut support in Mar then that Burgundy unit would be in deep trouble. And for the record, I _could_ have gotten him out of Burgundy if I wasn’t following through on orders that I promised you I’d make!!! If you’d have just been honest about wanting to play the safe role that’s what I might have done. That option was off the table because I was supporting you from Ruhr. > [@John\_DiFool](#): > > He can’t rebuild diddly-only two centers left. Austria has 6 SCs and 4 units on the board. He has to vacant places to build so by leaving his dislodged fleet off the board it allows him to build 2 armies or a fleet and an army. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/303 "2009-08-07T02:23:34Z")
Welcome to dealing with England, Germany. Good luck. I’m sure my governments notes will be useful to you, assuming your slavering troops don’t burn all the buildings in Paris. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/304 "2009-08-07T02:29:37Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > Welcome to dealing with England, Germany. Good luck. > > I’m sure my governments notes will be useful to you, assuming your slavering troops don’t burn all the buildings in Paris. Well, to be fair, he just did the exact same thing that you did in the opening turn in regards to the channel. There is essentially no concrete trusted alliance on the entire board right now. The first two nations to get to a point where they stop covering their asses will have a huge tactical advantage. It’s weird, I thought that in Open Press alliances would be more stable, not less. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/305 "2009-08-07T02:46:59Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Well, to be fair, he just did the exact same thing that you did in the opening turn in regards to the channel. > > There is essentially no concrete trusted alliance on the entire board right now. The first two nations to get to a point where they stop covering their asses will have a huge tactical advantage. It’s weird, I thought that in Open Press alliances would be more stable, not less. I would have thought so as well, but it seems folks are more than capable of sounding VERY convincing in open press, but still hedging their bets. Mark my words, when England is done with you, he will be very apologetic as he turns out over to a foe for disection. I am living proof of that. Austria, Italy… either of you fine gentleman up for a last stand alliance? ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/306 "2009-08-07T03:05:52Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > Mark my words, when England is done with you, he will be very apologetic as he turns out over to a foe for disection. I am living proof of that. No ulterior motive in that prediction at all! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/307 "2009-08-07T15:40:05Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I understand that things essentially amounted to the same and that there were risks all around. I’m just bothered that you just weren’t upfront about it. If you were going to take the safe route anyways, what’s the harm in letting others know what you are doing? By lying and ordering differently than you promised you did nothing to better our position against our enemies and all you accomplished was make it even harder for me to trust you. Like I said, if I had openly uttered my alternate plans (I almost got back out of bed, at 3 am, to do so-this fucking game ain’t helping my chronic insomnia), France could have decided to hose me by moving to the North Sea, or perhaps known that not contesting Holland was even safer for him (if he was considering doing so to keep the army out, which of course he didn’t, but I’m no mind-reader). I wasn’t lying to you-I had put my alternate orders in less than an hour before the deadline (thru at least 5 database errors) once I realized the danger-at that point I couldn’t count on you being around to also make a change, and in fact I assumed that you WERE going to make a play for Burgundy (since the support in Holland probably had a 90% of being cut, and likely was irrelevant in any case), something you don’t want to be announcing on an open channel for **Tristan** to hear. [I went to bed thinking you were crazy like a fox and thinking along similar lines] These were a series of agonizing choices and not ones I made lightly. If the tables were reversed I likely would be completely understanding of your motives. I guess I have a different impression about how communications need to be handled in open press than you (and **Tristan** -see post #303-he still has a bug up his butt about my moves in Spring '02) do, nor do I see how this is a “trust” issue, since your main stated goal was for me to cover Holland, which I did-if I had _actually_ betrayed you in any way I could have said fuck Holland and done something completely different, allowing him (if he so chose) to move in and take your center. Do I not have any sort of leeway, in an open press game, to keep my mouth shut about plans which, if known to the enemy, could compromise what we wanted to do and what I want them to do? Now, as far as the immediate future goes, I consider myself still completely on board with you. I’ll likely kick Russia out of St. Pete in the spring (which from your perspective you should be grateful I can still do, since your fleets will be otherwise busy defending Berlin, in which case moving the army to Holland would have been the _inferior_ play). I can probably get an army convoyed to the continent in '05, and in that year I’ll likely be threatening Brest as well. If I keep getting this unwarranted angst from my so-called allies, however, I may just tell **Cat** to go get a new player for England-I don’t need any more sleepless nights agonizing over this shit all the time. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/308 "2009-08-07T22:57:03Z")
One more attempt to clarify what I’ve said so far, and then I’ll shut up. In an open press game, allies must feel (within reasonable limits) free to unilaterally alter tactical plans while still fulfilling the spirit of the alliance. If the enemy knows that our modus operandi is to hash all details out on the open thread and then generally stick with them, that provides the opposition with a significant advantage. For example, **Omni** , if France did in fact try to bounce the move to Holland, but you altered your support order to attack Burgundy instead, I’d pat you on the back and give you a “job well done”, even if I didn’t get the center, not cry that you’ve forevermore sullied the alliance by “betraying” me, or whatever. I hope I’ve made my point crystal clear. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/309 "2009-08-08T01:51:44Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > One more attempt to clarify what I’ve said so far, and then I’ll shut up. In an open press game, allies must feel (within reasonable limits) free to unilaterally alter tactical plans while still fulfilling the spirit of the alliance. If the enemy knows that our modus operandi is to hash all details out on the open thread and then generally stick with them, that provides the opposition with a significant advantage. For example, **Omni** , if France did in fact try to bounce the move to Holland, but you altered your support order to attack Burgundy instead, I’d pat you on the back and give you a “job well done”, even if I didn’t get the center, not cry that you’ve forevermore sullied the alliance by “betraying” me, or whatever. I hope I’ve made my point crystal clear. I fully understand your point, however there are times to be unpredictable and times to be predictable. Early in an alliance where said predictability has minimal consequence and unpredictability has minimal benefit is a time to be truthful. Being unpredictable just for the sake of it is not a great plan, as evidenced clearly turn after turn in this game. I’m over it, we can let it go. The alliance will move forward fine and no damage was done. Better we have this disagreement now as opposed to a more sensitive moment. I think it’s important that we see each others perspective though. ---
**Author:** ![CatInASuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@CatInASuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CatInASuit)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/310 "2009-08-08T08:59:34Z")
Retreats done and it’s time for Winter **Austria** : Fleet Albania DISBAND **Italy** : Army Venice DISBAND **Russia** : Fleet Sweden -\> Skagerrak Here is the [latest map](http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc316/ruaria/Diplomacy/1903_Autumn_retreat.jpg) **BUILDS** Austria: Builds 2 units England: Builds 1 unit Turkey: Builds 1 unit **REMOVES** Russia: Removes 1 unit **Deadline for BUILDS/LOSSES is Sunday 9th August at 20:00 GMT** ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/311 "2009-08-08T15:53:33Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > It’s been reported wrongly, then. And of course a refusal to retreat allows it to rebuild as an army. I am planning on building two armies. My understanding is that you will be building a fleet in Con/Smy, correct? I suggest a fleet in Con to set up A Gre-Rom with F Ion convoy A Gre-Rom. Next turn would be F Ion-Tun gaining you two builds and putting Italy out of the game. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/312 "2009-08-08T19:02:19Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > I fully understand your point, however there are times to be unpredictable and times to be predictable. Early in an alliance where said predictability has minimal consequence and unpredictability has minimal benefit is a time to be truthful. Being unpredictable just for the sake of it is not a great plan, as evidenced clearly turn after turn in this game. > > I’m over it, we can let it go. The alliance will move forward fine and no damage was done. Better we have this disagreement now as opposed to a more sensitive moment. I think it’s important that we see each others perspective though. Okay. Agreed & understood on all counts then. Note we now have a problem with that pesky Russian fleet, if he doesn’t disband it. Okay, **grimpixie** , make us a deal-put something on the table. Note that your position isn’t hopeless-if you disband the fleet. If you keep it, you’ll quickly lose your southern holdings without a chance for a quick stalemate which might bring you back to the bargaining table with either Austria or Turkey. ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/313 "2009-08-08T19:47:46Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Okay, **grimpixie** , make us a deal-put something on the table. Note that your position isn’t hopeless-if you disband the fleet. If you keep it, you’ll quickly lose your southern holdings without a chance for a quick stalemate which might bring you back to the bargaining table with either Austria or Turkey. I’m perfectly willing to destroy the fleet, if you will leave StP alone. I’ll cede all claims to Scanidiavia in return for a secure northern border - likewise the armies in central Europe are not fully committed yet, they can easily turn south. All I have ever wanted from either you or Germany is peace in the North so that I can concentrate on the South where my real enemy lies. All talk of a Juggernaut has been fiction from the get-go, any alliance with Turkey has (from my perspective) been flimsy at the best, a sham at worst. Can we reach agreement? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/314 "2009-08-08T20:28:57Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I am planning on building two armies. My understanding is that you will be building a fleet in Con/Smy, correct? I suggest a fleet in Con to set up A Gre-Rom with F Ion convoy A Gre-Rom. Next turn would be F Ion-Tun gaining you two builds and putting Italy out of the game. I’m quietly confident that you neither want nor expect me to send anything to Rome… but thank you for the advice. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/315 "2009-08-08T21:00:42Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > I’m quietly confident that you neither want nor expect me to send anything to Rome… but thank you for the advice. Oops I meant Naples. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/316 "2009-08-08T22:58:00Z")
> [@grimpixie](#): > > I’m perfectly willing to destroy the fleet, if you will leave StP alone. I’ll cede all claims to Scanidiavia in return for a secure northern border - likewise the armies in central Europe are not fully committed yet, they can easily turn south. All I have ever wanted from either you or Germany is peace in the North so that I can concentrate on the South where my real enemy lies. All talk of a Juggernaut has been fiction from the get-go, any alliance with Turkey has (from my perspective) been flimsy at the best, a sham at worst. > > Can we reach agreement? Up to **Omniscient** , as I’m sure he wants to discuss those armies on his frontier. Mind, I am just opening the door here-no guarantees for the moment. I regret that your predecessor didn’t see things the same way. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/317 "2009-08-09T14:26:05Z")
**grimpixie:** Well, **Omni** hasn’t chimed in-he may not care about that fleet and thinks we can kill it in the spring (which, I’ll point out, we can). I thus won’t make any promises, just point out that it is the logical unit to kill, from your perspective. ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/318 "2009-08-09T16:21:59Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > **grimpixie:** > > Well, **Omni** hasn’t chimed in-he may not care about that fleet and thinks we can kill it in the spring (which, I’ll point out, we can). I thus won’t make any promises, just point out that it is the logical unit to kill, from your perspective. I’m schizophrenic remember 😉 - who knows what I’ll do… ---
**Author:** ![CatInASuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@CatInASuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CatInASuit)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/319 "2009-08-09T19:23:47Z")
RUSSIANS FLEE FROM SCANDANAVIA. STOP. ITALY INVADED BY THREE ARMIES. STOP. LOW COUNTRIES IN TURMOIL. STOP. So here, we in [Winter 1903](http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc316/ruaria/Diplomacy/1903_Winter.jpg) Builds Austria: Army Trieste, Vienna England: Fleet London Turkey: Fleet Constantinople REMOVES Russia: Fleet Skagerrak \*\*Deadline for Moves for Spring 1904 is Wednesday 12th August at 20:00 GMT \*\* **Map Tracker:** [Game Start](http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc316/ruaria/Diplomacy/1901_Spring_start.jpg) [Spring 1901](http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc316/ruaria/Diplomacy/1901_Spring_end_part2.jpg) [Autumn 1901](http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc316/ruaria/Diplomacy/1901_Autumn-1.jpg) [Winter 1901](http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc316/ruaria/Diplomacy/1901_Winter.jpg) [Spring 1902](http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc316/ruaria/Diplomacy/1902_Spring.jpg) [Autumn 1902](http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc316/ruaria/Diplomacy/1902_Autumn_retreat.jpg) [Winter 1902](http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc316/ruaria/Diplomacy/1902_Winter.jpg) [Spring 1903](http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc316/ruaria/Diplomacy/1903_Spring.jpg) [Autumn 1903](http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc316/ruaria/Diplomacy/1903_Autumn_retreat.jpg) [Winter 1903](http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc316/ruaria/Diplomacy/1903_Winter.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2009, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/320 "2009-08-10T15:17:16Z")
:crickets: **Omni** , you want to do another marathon discussion session either tonite or Tuesday? I’d probably characterize this year as primarily being one of consolidation and position gaining before the storm is unleashed in '05. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964.md?page=17)