# SDMB Diplomacy **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 5, 2009, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964 "2009-07-05T09:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/121 "2009-07-16T15:40:20Z")
**[Russia]**: **England** You’ve got a point. The mess in the south limits my options in the north. Perhaps a bounce would be wasteful. Assuming that we can trust each other for the moment, would you suggest we both simply depart from the bordering territories (perhaps specifying that I am not to go to Skaggerak and you’re not to go north?) **Austria** Well, maybe just ameliorating some of the more extreme demands from your original offer will provide a basis for an agreement… . [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/122 "2009-07-16T16:06:50Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > **Austria** > Well, maybe just ameliorating some of the more extreme demands from your original offer will provide a basis for an agreement… > > . [/QUOTE] There were no extreme demands in my proposal. It was, in fact, quite generous with only basic guarantees for my protection. Let’s look at them: > [@treis](#): > > (1) You have to build an army or fleet in StP. Building an army in Warsaw=War. This is a perfectly reasonable demand for any Austria-Russia alliance. A Russian army in Warsaw can provide no help in fighting Turkey or Italy. The only purpose of a Russian army in Warsaw is to move it to Sil or Gal. I.E. attacking me or my ally. > [@treis](#): > > (2) You have to help Germany in the north for at least the next two years. You need to attack NOR from StP with support from SWE for this duration unless the Kaiser prefers different. A move towards Germany ends our alliance. This is a reasonable demand because I want assurances that Germany will survive, or at least that his demise will take a reasonable amount of time. A quick carving up of Germany is bad for me because it begets a strong France and makes it extremely difficult to do anything in the Mediterranean. Besides, this is something you should be doing regardless of what happens in the South. England is coming for you either sooner or later, and working with Germany is the only way to stop that. > [@treis](#): > > (3) No fleet build in SEV for the duration. Again, just a prudent future protection for myself. > [@treis](#): > > As for Galacia, I must refuse and inform you that I would view a Russian Army in Gal as an act of war. An army bordering two of my home centers that provides no help against Italy or Turkey. Why would you even ask if you could do that? Negotiation on the terms of our agreement is fine. Asking permission to make blatantly anti-Austrian moves and negotiating with an enemy of mine for an alliance is totally unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/123 "2009-07-16T16:08:27Z")
Turkey Russia I believe we are thinking on much the same lines. Suppose we put the fleet problem on hold (heh) for now and get on with sharing out Austro-Hungarian-Balkan territory expeditiously? The situation in the North-West won’t take all that long to resolve and it won’t pay us still to be bogged down when we need to start to see to affairs in that quarter - and, especially, if you opt to ally with Austria now, it’s likely that the Italy/Turkey vs Russia/Austria slugfest will still be going on long after the Western Alliance is marching through Silesia. I quite agree in the longer term that my fleet should depart the Black Sea - either for the Med or else to take up a seaside posting in Bulgaria(E) where it and some future unit of yours in Rumania can stand each other off perpetually, each the guarantee of the other’s good faith. As long as we have Italy on board for this plan, I see myself primarily as a land power anyway, though I’ll need to strengthen my navy a little _pro tem._ in order to see off Austria. We can sort out the fine detail later - but, whatever you think of my shenanigans to date, it has left us both better placed to take on Austria than if Rumania were still playing host to a fleet, no matter whose. Italy I’ll be glad to lend your fleet a hand if you want to sail it towards Greece, shall we say? Affairs further north will be more a matter for you and the Tsar to sort out, until I can get a little further from my doorstep. See you both in Vienna, and I’ll bring the coffee. 🙂 /Turkey ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/124 "2009-07-16T16:33:29Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Turkey > > Russia > I believe we are thinking on much the same lines. Suppose we put the fleet problem on hold (heh) for now and get on with sharing out Austro-Hungarian-Balkan territory expeditiously? The situation in the North-West won’t take all that long to resolve and it won’t pay us still to be bogged down when we need to start to see to affairs in that quarter - and, especially, if you opt to ally with Austria now, it’s likely that the Italy/Turkey vs Russia/Austria slugfest will still be going on long after the Western Alliance is marching through Silesia. > > I quite agree in the longer term that my fleet should depart the Black Sea - either for the Med or else to take up a seaside posting in Bulgaria(E) where it and some future unit of yours in Rumania can stand each other off perpetually, each the guarantee of the other’s good faith. As long as we have Italy on board for this plan, I see myself primarily as a land power anyway, though I’ll need to strengthen my navy a little _pro tem._ in order to see off Austria. > > We can sort out the fine detail later - but, whatever you think of my shenanigans to date, it has left us both better placed to take on Austria than if Rumania were still playing host to a fleet, no matter whose. > > Italy > I’ll be glad to lend your fleet a hand if you want to sail it towards Greece, shall we say? Affairs further north will be more a matter for you and the Tsar to sort out, until I can get a little further from my doorstep. See you both in Vienna, and I’ll bring the coffee. 🙂 > > /Turkey Will you two look at his offer? Italy gets Greece, Russia gets Rumania back, and what price is Turkey extracting for this? People make alliances in this game because they get something out of it. His offer actually manages to have him give up territory and put him in a weak defensive position. Make no mistake about it, if you two do ally with Turkey he is getting something out of it. He gets (1) time he desperately needs to get all his forces into play, (2) he gets his neighbors to tie up the second strongest country in the region, and (3) he gets to hit the soft underbelly of his allies. He doesn’t lose anything because he isn’t going to give Rumania back, and he is only giving Greece to Italy so it will be easier to take it for himself. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/125 "2009-07-16T16:45:58Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Will you two look at his offer? > > Italy gets Greece, Russia gets Rumania back, and what price is Turkey extracting for this? People make alliances in this game because they get something out of it. His offer actually manages to have him give up territory and put him in a weak defensive position. Make no mistake about it, if you two do ally with Turkey he is getting something out of it. He gets (1) time he desperately needs to get all his forces into play, (2) he gets his neighbors to tie up the second strongest country in the region, and (3) he gets to hit the soft underbelly of his allies. He doesn’t lose anything because he isn’t going to give Rumania back, and he is only giving Greece to Italy so it will be easier to take it for himself. Italy is very likely to get Trieste as well, and Russia is looking set fair for Budapest, leaving Vienna for me (and Serbia in exchange for Rumania) - and, strategically, the three of us get things done quickly before Germany falls. Really, if you’re going to bad-mouth me, try to make it plausible. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/126 "2009-07-16T17:17:44Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > **[Russia]**: > > **England** > You’ve got a point. The mess in the south limits my options in the north. Perhaps a bounce would be wasteful. Assuming that we can trust each other for the moment, would you suggest we both simply depart from the bordering territories (perhaps specifying that I am not to go to Skaggerak and you’re not to go north?) [E] Okay-Fleet Norway won’t be going north (Nwg Sea or Barent’s Sea), you won’t contest Skag. Done. Hinges of course on no builds in St. Pete. I’ll point out that a stationary (purely defensive) Army Warsaw can support the Ukraine (or Moscow) if nothing else, tho it likely won’t come to that this upcoming year. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/127 "2009-07-16T17:22:00Z")
[E] to [F]: You may need A Marseilles, as A Bur will otherwise tie down A Paris in a defensive role. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/128 "2009-07-16T17:49:19Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Italy is very likely to get Trieste as well, and Russia is looking set fair for Budapest, leaving Vienna for me (and Serbia in exchange for Rumania) - and, strategically, the three of us get things done quickly before Germany falls. Really, if you’re going to bad-mouth me, try to make it plausible. :dubious: Leaving Vienna for you? Seriously? That’s the best you can come up with. Again, look at his offer. Russia nets two centers, Italy nets two, and Turkey nets 1 center. Furthermore, the one center he says he is getting is completely isolated from the rest of his territory and totally indefensible. If the alliance ends up with Italy in Tri and Gre, Russia in Bud and Rum, and Turkey in Serb and Vie, Turkey will have gone from the strongest country in the alliance to the weakest by far. **wevets** , man come on. He’s got a fleet in the Black Sea. He took Rumania. Italy is going to tie me up. He is offering a totally impractical alliance. It wouldn’t be more obvious if he was jumping around waving a “I’m attacking Russia sign”. He’s coming for you and is this alliance nonsense is just trying to get you to lower your guard. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/129 "2009-07-16T18:08:20Z")
**[Russia]** **Austria** Sorry Austria, I’m going to have to take my chance with the Turk. I’ll do what I can amongst the sharks. **Turkey** & **Italy** OK. I’m on board. **England** Agreed. Unfortunately, I am completely aware that a build in St. Pete would totally piss you off and I can’t afford the other front now. **[/Russia]** ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/130 "2009-07-16T18:12:37Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > **Austria** > Sorry Austria, I’m going to have to take my chance with the Turk. I’ll do what I can amongst the sharks. Sigh, fine. Will you at least take basic steps to ensure that you don’t die too quickly? Like making Turkey leave the Black Sea before cooperating. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/131 "2009-07-16T18:48:54Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > **[Russia]** > > **England** > Agreed. Unfortunately, I am completely aware that a build in St. Pete would totally piss you off and I can’t afford the other front now. > > **[/Russia]** [E] Just clarifying-I am a bit confused by the term “unfortunately”-I assume you mean to reassure me that no such build is forthcoming? ---
**Author:** ![CatInASuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3be4f8/32.png) [@CatInASuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CatInASuit)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/132 "2009-07-16T20:29:34Z")
QUIET IN EUROPE. STOP. GOVERNMENTS GEARING FOR NEXT PHRASE. STOP. ALLIANCES MADE AND BROKEN. STOP. So here, we in [Winter 1901](http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc316/ruaria/Diplomacy/1901_Winter.jpg) **Builds Received.** **Austria** Army Vienna Army Budapest **England** Fleet Edinburgh **France** Army in Mar Army in Par **Germany** A Mun **Italy** Fleet Venice **Russia** Build Army Warsaw **Turkey** Fleet Smyrna Army Constantinople Given there is a weekend coming up. \*\*Deadline for Moves for Spring 1902 is Monday 20th July at 20:00 GMT \*\* ---
**Author:** ![History\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b19c9b/32.png) [@History\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/History_Geek)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/133 "2009-07-16T20:50:54Z")
[ITALY] Turkey & Russia: Done and done. We three against the Archduke, and let none cry for quarter! France: I’ll trust you for now - you do seem to have your hands full. I’m more than willing to discuss future cooperative efforts when the time is right. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/134 "2009-07-16T20:53:40Z")
Turkey Italy and Russia Austria has one thing right at any rate - it’s no good my thinking in terms of Vienna as part of my share. We’ll carve it up as best we can, but I think the final share-out will have to be Vienna and Trieste to Italy, Rumania and Budapest to Russia, Serbia and Greece to me. I’m perfectly willing for Italy to get Greece in 1902 though as Vienna and Trieste are likely to hold out for a little longer. For some reason I was thinking I could be the centre of a land-based push towards Germany later in the war, but it doesn’t work out, we end up stepping on each other’s toes. That’ll teach me to actually _look_ at the map instead of thinking I’ve got it memorised after all these years. Never mind. Let’s get him. /Turkey ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/135 "2009-07-16T21:20:49Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Turkey > Italy and Russia > Austria has one thing right at any rate - it’s no good my thinking in terms of Vienna as part of my share. We’ll carve it up as best we can, but I think the final share-out will have to be Vienna and Trieste to Italy, Rumania and Budapest to Russia, Serbia and Greece to me. I’m perfectly willing for Italy to get Greece in 1902 though as Vienna and Trieste are likely to hold out for a little longer. > > For some reason I was thinking I could be the centre of a land-based push towards Germany later in the war, but it doesn’t work out, we end up stepping on each other’s toes. That’ll teach me to actually _look_ at the map instead of thinking I’ve got it memorised after all these years. Never mind. Let’s get him. > > /Turkey And the framework for a betrayal is lain. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/136 "2009-07-16T21:28:14Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > And the framework for a betrayal is lain. More like “for a second betrayal”. Well Kaiser, it looks like we are pretty fucked. Perhaps we should take a couple fleets to Argentina and start another Germanic kingdom there! ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/137 "2009-07-16T21:37:57Z")
> [@treis](#): > > More like “for a second betrayal”. > > Well Kaiser, it looks like we are pretty fucked. Perhaps we should take a couple fleets to Argentina and start another Germanic kingdom there! Better yet I think we should focus our spite somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/138 "2009-07-16T21:43:08Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Better yet I think we should focus our spite somewhere. Well if you feel like suiciding to save we could maybe do something. Otherwise we , or at least I, will be dead before being able to do anything concrete. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/139 "2009-07-16T21:50:59Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > And the framework for a betrayal is lain. Just because you’re up the swannee is no reason to take it out on me. I’ve not done a thing to you. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![History\_Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b19c9b/32.png) [@History\_Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/History_Geek)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964/140 "2009-07-17T05:20:58Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Turkey > Italy and Russia > Austria has one thing right at any rate - it’s no good my thinking in terms of Vienna as part of my share. We’ll carve it up as best we can, but I think the final share-out will have to be Vienna and Trieste to Italy, Rumania and Budapest to Russia, Serbia and Greece to me. I’m perfectly willing for Italy to get Greece in 1902 though as Vienna and Trieste are likely to hold out for a little longer. > > For some reason I was thinking I could be the centre of a land-based push towards Germany later in the war, but it doesn’t work out, we end up stepping on each other’s toes. That’ll teach me to actually _look_ at the map instead of thinking I’ve got it memorised after all these years. Never mind. Let’s get him. > > /Turkey [ITALY] Turkey: & Russia: That appears to be a good final division of things to me. And I’ll be happy to yield control of Greece to the Turkish Empire once Austria’s proverbial hash has been settled. If the Tsar can place an army in Galacia, we can move it along a bit quicker. Everyone Else: Nothing to see here. Move along. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-diplomacy/501964.md?page=8)