# SDMB Dynasty Fantasy Football League (recruiting) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086 "2009-08-20T16:08:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086/181 "2009-09-07T15:04:37Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Basically, I like the concept of breaking up the sandwich picks, and I’m wondering if there’s a way to do it that’s fair. It’s very unlikely we’ll wind up using one of these ideas on Wednesday. I can’t find the spreadhseet I created to analyze different scenarios, but I can tell you that the results would be misleading for your proposals due to only having values for the first 190 of 300 picks. I vote for draft order #2. I also vote to have kickers. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086/182 "2009-09-07T15:24:03Z")
\*\*Ellis \*\*sent me the following list of teams: Deliverance Exploding Pancakes The Gusterrhoids 9 Inch Neils (RNATB) Fightin’ Quakers RetroVertigo CuteWiddleBunny(Hmlt New York Fanboys Varlos’ Zzzzzzz We Do HGH Warner’s Brothers Isotopes . . . and \*\*Beef \*\*sent me the following series of numbers: 4 9 11 2 1 7 3 8 10 5 12 6 Put them together, and our 1st Round draft order will be as follows: 1. Fightin’ Quakers (furt) 2. 9 Inch Neils (RNATB) 3. CuteWiddleBunny (Hamlet) 4. Deliverance (The Mad Hermit) 5. We Do HGH (Stringer) 6. Isotopes (Petey) 7. RetroVertigo 8. New York Fanboys (Ellis Dee) 9. Exploding Pancakes (SenorBeef) 10. Varlos’ Zzzzzzz 11. The Gusterrhoids (Justin\_Bailey) 12. Warner’s Brothers (dalej42) ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086/183 "2009-09-07T15:49:05Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > The defense scoring scale looks a bit harsh on the penalty side. I’d prefer the “4” scale: 16 / 12 / 8 / 4 / 0 / -4 / -8. While I would be willing to accept VarlosZ’s more severe scoring, I think this proposal will find better traction. I’m good either either. > [@](#): > > I’d rather safeties be worth 2, since I don’t see rarity as a valid reason to increase points. For example, the two-point conversion is much rarer than the extra point but it doesn’t get a relative boost. Because safeties are so incredibly rare, it won’t matter either way. Just a conceptual thing. (The fact that it’s so rare as to not matter is what makes boosting them to an arbitrarily large value seem even stranger to me. Why not make offensive fumble return TDs worth 12 while we’re at it?) I thought you were on board with Omni’s idea that safeties were both a score (2) and a turnover (2). It makes perfect sense to me and I feel like I should’ve come up with that logic myself. > [@VarlosZ](#): > > 1. Standard serpentine. > > 2. Reverse the draft order after the first two rounds, then do serpentine from that point on. So, the team that picks last in Round 1 will pick first in Rounds 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, etc. > > 3. Reverse the serpentine order \*every \*two rounds. So, the team that picks last in Round 1 will pick first in Rounds 2, 3, 6, 7, 10, 11, etc. > > 4. Standard serpentine, except that the draft order in the 3rd Round only is inverted. So, the team that picks last in Round 1 will pick first in Rounds 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10, etc. According to [this page](http://www.dynastyleaguefootball.com/hq/workshop02.php), this method yields the fairest results, but keep in mind that they’re basing that off of pick values that were not arrived at scientifically. > > 5. Non-serpentine: standard order for the 1st Round, then reverse order for every subsequent Round. So, the team that picks last in Round 1 will pick first in Rounds, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. My order of preference from most to least is: 5\*, 2, 4, 3, 1. 5 was originally my proposal, but seeing how much it weighted things towards the end, I wouldn’t be opposed to modifying it so that the first 4 rounds snaked normally and the rest of the draft from there on was DCBA DCBA. In general, I’d rather see a system where the draft didn’t serpentine most of the time. I don’t like the mechanics of it. I was also factoring in the work of the commish in my suggestions. With 5, you set the order you’ll use for most rounds, and then just manually edit the 1 or 2 rounds you need to change. With some of these proposals, you’d have to go in and change the draft order for a significant fraction of the rounds. > [@VarlosZ](#): > > 1. Standard rotative waivers. > … > 2. Free Agent Acquisition Budgets. > … > 3. Reverse order of standings. > … > 4. Reverse standings, with shifting worst 4. Strongly prefer 2, then 1, then 4, then 3. Free agent acqusition budgets seem like a good idea to me in any type of league. The player goes to the person who wants him the most, rather than the person in the best position to pick him up at the time - similar to why an auction draft is generally better than a standard draft. You can also alter the budgets in season to give a parity factor to this - you could give the worst 2/4 teams every week a few bonus dollars. Maybe 11th and 12th place get $5 extra and 9th and 10th get $2 extra. Doesn’t sound like much, but after a few weeks they’d have a noticible edge on spending power. I agree with Ellis Dee’s logic that lists that reset every week take away the strategy as to whether or not to use the waiver wire. I don’t think that’s too huge a negative, but I don’t prefer it. > [@EllisDee](#): > > When I was on the fence about joining the league, the thing that clinched it for me was using standard starting rosters. An expanded starting roster doesn’t appeal to me at all. > > However, don’t misinterpret this as an ultimatum in any way. I’ll play hard no matter what, staying active every week and making the best decisions I can on roster moves. I just wanted to clarify how strongly opposed I am to the idea. To wit, I wouldn’t have joined in the first place except that it while I was deciding, it was [stated](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11467516&postcount=7) [multiple](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11468228&postcount=11) [times](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11469421&postcount=19) that we would be using standard starting rosters. You’re right. I retract my preference for a deep roster, as I should’ve indicated that preference during the recruitment process if I was going to push for it. I don’t want to unintentionally end up doing some bait and switch. I still think we could probably fairly put in one more starting spot, maybe a flex spot, than a standard league, but not the 12-13 starter type roster I proposed. I’m good with dropping kickers. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086/184 "2009-09-07T15:58:18Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > In general, I’d rather see a system where the draft didn’t serpentine most of the time. I don’t like the mechanics of it. Heh, I generally prefer serpentione because I actually prefer the snaking mechanics, especially if I’m toward the edges. Not a huge deal. I’ll be fine with whatever, but I liked the one with the most even distribution best. > [@](#): > > I thought you were on board with Omni’s idea that safeties were both a score (2) and a turnover (2). Yes, I am. I totally spaced that logic, which I do buy into. > [@](#): > > Free agent acqusition budgets seem like a good idea to me in any type of league. The player goes to the person who wants him the most, rather than the person in the best position to pick him up at the time - similar to why an auction draft is generally better than a standard draft. You can also alter the budgets in season to give a parity factor to this - you could give the worst 2/4 teams every week a few bonus dollars. Maybe 11th and 12th place get $5 extra and 9th and 10th get $2 extra. Doesn’t sound like much, but after a few weeks they’d have a noticible edge on spending power. Yeah, I’m sold. This is a compelling argument, and seems much more workable to me. I change my vote to this. IMO, we just need to hammer out the details of how to help the last place teams before Sunday kickoff. The $2/$5 idea sounds reasonable. Maybe the last 5 teams get $1, $2, $3, $4 and $5 respectively. Take the five teams with the worst record, order them by points scored in the last two weeks, then they get $1 - $5 depending on their scoring rank. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086/185 "2009-09-07T16:15:47Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > You can also alter the budgets in season to give a parity factor to this - you could give the worst 2/4 teams every week a few bonus dollars. Maybe 11th and 12th place get $5 extra and 9th and 10th get $2 extra. Doesn’t sound like much, but after a few weeks they’d have a noticable edge on spending power. That’s a thought. And in subsequent years the weaker teams could start with a somewhat larger budget, which would help them to snag any obvious breakouts. The commish can edit everyone’s budget in-season? > [@](#): > > I still think we could probably fairly put in one more starting spot, maybe a flex spot, than a standard league, but not the 12-13 starter type roster I proposed. **Ellis** , how would you feel about using a standard roster except for adding a lone WR/TE flex spot (and possibly nixing Kickers if that’s how the vote turns out) – i.e., option 2) in Post #135? Not too radical a change, would help WRs and TEs catch up to RBs in importance a little bit, and we’ll all have a bunch of WRs on our benches. I’m doing my best to log everyone’s opinion on every category and subcategory, and to note degrees of preference. Again, aside from the Kicker question nothing is \*exactly \*a straight up & down vote, but everyone’s opinion is being counted. Speaking of Kickers, so far we 4 Yeas and 5 Nays (that is, 5 votes for eliminating the Kicker position). Everyone has weighed in except **RNATB** , **Petey** , and **furt**. I haven’t decided what to do in case of a tie. Cross that bridge when we come to it, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086/186 "2009-09-07T16:17:31Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Yeah, I’m sold. This is a compelling argument, and seems much more workable to me. I change my vote to this. Noted. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086/187 "2009-09-07T16:18:49Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > That’s a thought. And in subsequent years the weaker teams could start with a somewhat larger budget, which would help them to snag any obvious breakouts. The commish can edit everyone’s budget in-season? I’m pretty sure. I edited everyone’s budget in the auction league to give them the leftover money from the draft, and I don’t see why that option would be turned off. > [@](#): > > Speaking of Kickers, so far we 4 Yeas and 5 Nays (that is, 5 votes for eliminating the Kicker position). Everyone has weighed in except **RNATB** , **Petey** , and **furt**. I haven’t decided what to do in case of a tie. Cross that bridge when we come to it, I guess. In the event of a tie or otherwise ambiguous result, if it’s a straight yes or no (where no compromise position is possible) I’d lean towards doing whatever is traditional/expected. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086/188 "2009-09-07T16:22:16Z")
Yeah, it’ll either be that or a virtual (or literal) coin-flip. I was tempted to declare my intent to use my powers as President of the Senate to break a tie, but that’s problematic for a couple of reasons. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086/189 "2009-09-07T16:39:46Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > **Ellis** , how would you feel about using a standard roster except for adding a lone WR/TE flex spot (and possibly nixing Kickers if that’s how the vote turns out) – i.e., option 2) in Post #135? Not too radical a change, would help WRs and TEs catch up to RBs in importance a little bit, and we’ll all have a bunch of WRs on our benches. What do you guys think of this compromise: QB RB RB RB/WR WR WR WR/TE TE K DEF 15 bench spots This opens up the possibility of three RBs, which is in line with the idea of expanded rosters, but only two RBs would actually be required so nobody would be forced to field three RB studs in order to compete. It allows two TEs to help emphasize TEs, who sorely need some love to not be a total afterthought. It allows up to four WRs, which allows for lots of decision making each week. It keeps the kicker which is in line with standard fantasy leagues. Finally, it totals 25 players, which hits the goal of 300 drafted players on the nose. I’m not a fan of being able to field three RBs, but this is the closest thing to an average of the two ideas I could come up with. Having one dedicated RB and one RB/WR like in the All-Pro league feels a little more confined on the RB front than I think this league should probably be. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086/190 "2009-09-07T16:43:01Z")
I like it, especially in conjunction with .5 PPR which means it’s viable not to necesarily always stuff a RB into the RB/WR slot. I’m fine with that or the no kicker/24 man roster version of that too. ---
**Author:** ![Petey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f1d935/32.png) [@Petey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petey)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086/191 "2009-09-07T17:32:46Z")
So let me get this straight, a huge roster, but we eliminate positions. If we eliminate Kickers, why don’t we eliminate Tight Ends, Defense and call it Fantasy Calvinball? I vote for keeping a kicker. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086/192 "2009-09-07T17:35:49Z")
Because tight ends and defenses can effectively be predicted to a much greater degree. Can you name 5 of what will become the top 10 kickers this year? Maybe, probably not. But you could probably do that for def/TE. Kickers for the most part just add random noise to FF leagues. It’s hard to play matchups with them successfully, it’s hard to draft them successfully, and their scores can go from almost nothing to crazy 30 point games. My voting against kickers isn’t specific to this league, I’d like to start phasing out kickers in all my leagues - what do they really add? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086/193 "2009-09-07T17:51:17Z")
The dropping kickers thing was my idea, but since four people are against it I’ll vote against. My preference for starting rosters would be: QB RB (x2) WR (x2) TE WR/TE flex K D/ST Personally, I think the standard serpentine draft is pretty fair- especially this year. And I’m not just saying that because I have the #2 pick; I’d be perfectly happy to swap spots with anyone who wants to move up. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086/194 "2009-09-07T18:35:27Z")
Uh, dibs on swap! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086/195 "2009-09-07T19:15:51Z")
Done. Well, if we do a standard serpentine. If not I’d have to look again. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086/196 "2009-09-07T20:14:10Z")
You guys are basically trading all of your picks to each other? I . . . guess that’s ok. Going to the movies, back in a few hours. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086/197 "2009-09-07T20:29:52Z")
I don’t think everyone would be cool with the idea. He seemed to say it seriously so I of course jumped on the opportunity, but … that doesn’t seem fair. I mean, it’s voluntary and all, but I doubt people would like it. We probably should’ve decided on the draft system before determining pick order. I probably should’ve thought about that as I was sending you the numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Petey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f1d935/32.png) [@Petey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petey)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086/198 "2009-09-07T21:29:57Z")
After 4 pages of you guys arguing the minutia of scoring and rosters, I’m not sure what the point of this league is. Is knowledge of Seattle’s 3rd string Tight End is required? And no kickers because we don’t want anything as uncouth as “luck” to enter the league. I’m not sure this league is for me. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086/199 "2009-09-07T21:35:16Z")
What the fuck? We’re doing a league that’s very different from a standard league, which there’s little documentation on, so we’re discussing the details of how it would work, and now because we’re asking if people even want to bother to have kickers, well, that just doesn’t work for you? So now you’re going to bail on the league 2 days before the draft because even though we’re well within the bounds of what we proposed the league to be originally, you’re throwing a fit over the lack of kickers? Massive dick move. ---
**Author:** ![Petey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f1d935/32.png) [@Petey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petey)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086/200 "2009-09-07T22:22:23Z")
Pardon me for having doubts. Just because I’m not interested in all the minutia, that makes me a dick. I didn’t say I was leaving the league. I should have kept my mouth shut. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-dynasty-fantasy-football-league-recruiting/507086.md?page=11)